3.2 First Impressions

[sawood12]

Paul, the chap on Rennlist who posted the pics I posted here (if that makes sense) seems to be quite open about his adaptors. I'm sure if you PM'd him he might be willing to provide some drawings. However he seemed to think that it would be an easier conversion if you had the non-M030 hubs. Fancy a trade!![]

George, you are absolutely right, however when people talk about better brakes in the context we are talking we really mean the brake systems ability to deal with heat. Basicaly the stock system will provide more than enough clamping force as Ben has suggested, however it is heat management that is really key here, and in that case bigger is better. I'm inclined to agree with Paul in that BB's should be man enough for the job, especially with decent ducting - they were man enough for the 993TT and the 928 GTS which weighed as much as Bella Enburg on the surface of Jupiter. We've all heard about Andrew Sweatenams antics on track and he has BB's with stock pads and discs and he doesn't seem to suffer fading issues - though these 3.2 litre builds are upping the ante. So with decent aftermarket pads, fluid and ducting i'm sure BB's will be good enough.

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

If you look at the power and torque levels your cars are at compared with the weight and compare to similarly weighted and powered modern machinery you are right up there knocking on the door of GT3 territory. So get saving up for those 6-pots!!

knocking on the door?

check the torque on pauls car torque equals acceleration, thats also why m3's are easily embarrassed by breathed on 944t's not sure about the v8 though.

 

[MarkK]

Paul,i put big reds on my 968cs and ran it on slicks,the big blacks are the same caliper they have MONSTER stopping power especially with a meaty pad like pagid orange or performance friction i reckon they will be up to the job.The same caliper was used on 993 turbos,993RSs the big blacks are a great bit of kit and you can run them with the solid 928 GTS discs that are cheaper and don't crack as easy as the GT3 ones.I reckon they are a great soloution you will be pleased with, i pounded mine for lap after lap,i used an uprated brake fluid aswell.I don't think you will be disapointed with the big blacks,great to know she("LiL") is nearly sorted[]
P.S You could put the 968 "fang" ducts that hang beneath the car, Steve R has them on his car if i remember correctly?
P.P.S you do realise that if you put big blacks on, your original and beautiful 16 inch wheels will no longer fit![]

 

[333pg333]

It is too difficult to make an adapter for the late model offsets that allow you to bolt up the GT3 brakes. I even considered changing mine out to older model spindles. But there are more issues than just changing the calipers. Sure the later Monoblock ones are lighter which is always better however for me anyway that would not solve my pedal pressure issue. I think you also need to consider uprating the master cylinder in concert with the larger calipers to exert greater pressure. I have the BR's on the front and S4's on the back with the 5/33 bias valve, tube ducting to rotor, PFC pads, DOT 5 fluid and still have a bit of a soft pedal at times. When we're getting up to the power levels that some of our cars are now attaining I can't see why we shouldn't have superior braking at least as good as the GT3's. Considering they have all sorts of gadgetry to help in the brake and suspension dept. that we don't, we may as well try and balance the ledger as much as possible.

 

[Indi9xx]

Ben's 3.2 status...

Yesterday we set up a running in map on the dyno dynamics rolling road here in Bournemouth, to make sure Ben's next 1000 miles are giving the engine a perfect mixture.

Power figures for this running in map were as follows...

10 PSI of boost which is set to creep in smoothly
287.8 BHP at the flywheel @ 4800 rpm
330 lbs of torque @ 4200 rpm

It starts to make boost at 1600 rpm (thats when it first makes positive pressure.)

This was with a standard wastegate, for running in purposes.

Pauls car...

Paul's car it should be remembered is running a standard exhaust, I believe that if the exhaust was changed for a good system such as a 3 or 3.5 inch fabspeed system, all the way from the turbo back, it would make equal torque and bhp

Also, I am confident that the 3.2 engines, with correct fuel and ignition mapping would be happier at 1.4 bar of boost with a good intercooler

3.2 Number 3...

The number 3 3.2 which we are just waiting for an ECU for... has quite a wild spec.. including custom cam, solid lifters, BIG BIG BIG valves, custom intake manifold, custom exhaust manifold, custom crossover, and a 4 inch exhaust system, all controlled with a stand alone engine management system... This one is going to be a real bruiser.

The 2.5 turbo cab that Paul mentioned...

Yesterday it too was on the rollers... 416 BHP, 380 LBS of torque, very driveable and a very happy owner... total cost was around £5000... Even still has a stock bog standard intake manifold... Our mad scientist experiments are bearing fruit )

All the best

Jon Mitchell
JMG - 9XX

 

[DivineE]

Never has so few words made me this happy. 'I love you' just doesn't do it for me but 'your car is ready for you to collect' which is what I heard this morning.. NOW THAT is what I like to hear[][][][][] one very happy and excited chappie here! 1600rpm! I knew it was low!

Regards,

Ben

p.s. 330ft/lb is more than I've ever had on tap in a car I've owned.. running in[] on a standard 2nd hand 23year old waste gate[][][] Damn I'm I happy! I'll be taking the very long way to work in the mornings next week I think!

 

[djcla]

are these 3.2 turbo upgrades completley new engines if not can someone explain in noddy language how it works? (excuse my stupidity )

 

[DivineE]

"However he seemed to think that it would be an easier conversion if you had the non-M030 hubs. "

If your serious then I love this statement!! Makes me finally feel better about my early hubs. How do I go about investigating all that I would need to do the conversion? ..sounds complicated! Why doesn't someone in the UK offer a kit.. Jon??[]


In reply to djcla the pic on the first page of this thread shows it best I suppose. Basically you start out with a 944 block (so that all the standard parts fit on it nicely) then you strip out everything inside it and redesign a modern version of the engine which removes all of the weak points in the original and uses the latest (strongest available) materials to built a set of internal bits that will allow you to keep pushing the bounadries of bolt on tuning bits like bigger turbo's, exhausts, intercoolers etc for years to come with the safe and comfortable knowledge that you've got the strongest possible base to work from. Ohh and as an added bonus you get a bigger capacity too which means more power anyway.[]

Regards,

Ben

 

[Indi9xx]

longer stroke a much larger bore than a standard 944 turbo.

Engine components all beefed up to the maximum

Bores completely removed and replaced with braced steel liners with ceramic coated liners.

Externally look like a brand new standard engine with only minor details changed.

 

[Hilux]

My school of thought is Brakes cannot overcome physics Scott, you can stop the wheel but that won't necessarily stop the car.

With oodles of power in a straight line the car will accelerate to much higher speeds within a given distance. This speed (kinetic energy) therefore has to be scrubbed off or lost. The only way is to turn it into heat and dissipate it via the brakes. On track the idea is to brake late and HARD. Trailing or gentle long term braking will overheat pads and fluid. However if you are travelling 30 mph quicker into a corner because you have the power to do so then in that in that short straight period you have increased the kinetic energy (heat) that has to be lost almost instantaneously and tend to set smaller brakes on fire or boil the fluid. Jon Simms will vouch for the fact that you can boil Mo30 brakes even with uprated pads and fluid IIRC. I must admit I did in my first outing with my Mo30 944 [&:] and although I`ve got better fluid and pads still consider big blacks (at least) a must for added power.

The standard brakes/pads even when uprated with better pads are not really designed to take the hugely increased speeds achievable or the big yellows/reds etc on more powerful Porsche models would be superfluous. The standard Mo30 brakes will be adequate but only if the car is driven within the normal engine power parameters. Thats my personal view and having messed around with light kit cars with more than adequate brakes with more power you still need bigger better brakes.

 

[zcacogp]

As a point of interest, how much further could you go if you were to start with the S2 3.0 block? Would that make any difference - given that you are removing all the internal bores anyway?

What about a multivalve head? I am guessing that the turbo inlet and exhaust mainfolds don't happen to bolt up nicely to the S2 head, so you'd be looking at some pretty trick custom pipework ... would the (potential) gains be big enough to make it worthwhile?


Oli.

ETA: On the brakes front, you are all being big-bloused wusses! Try driving a Mk1 Golf GTi for a while ... you very quickly learn that brakes are slightly optional, and you can drive around poor/non-existent braking with a bit of practice ...

 

[Indi9xx]

We always start with an S2 or 968 block anyway... 16v head... more power isnt the problem, limited traction is the biggest problem at the moment. But we are working on that.

16 valve engines... maybe later

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

'your car is ready for you to collect' which is what I heard this morning..

I shall put all the Northants motorists on high alert []

Looks like you'll have a good weekends weather to put some miles on the old girl, following the strict run in procedure. What size and make of rear tyres do you have fitted at the moment?

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

The 2.5 turbo cab that Paul mentioned..... 416 BHP, 380 LBS of torque,

Mmmmmm, we need to see them dyno charts (if the owner is okay with that). Better still get him on here and posting about it []

 

[Indi9xx]

Mmmmmm, we need to see them dyno charts

Trying to upload a chart to this forum now... not sure if it will work )

 

[Indi9xx]

I will try to get Nick to join the forum... but do not hold your breath as he isnt too internet savy... however he is itching to go to a dyno day and will be at the next southern tipec meeting on tuesday

Also, we are adjusting his ignition timing maps in the next 14 days... so the power may well be going up a bit more!!!!

 

[Indi9xx]

If your still popping down on friday Paul, I should be able to get you a ride in the turbo cab.. Nick, the owner is desperate to show it off!!

He has run out of modified local Evo's and Suberu WRX's to impress (his mate with a Tommy Mac Evo wasnt too happy either)

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

As a point of interest, how much further could you go if you were to start with the S2 3.0 block? Would that make any difference - given that you are removing all the internal bores anyway?

What about a multivalve head? I am guessing that the turbo inlet and exhaust mainfolds don't happen to bolt up nicely to the S2 head, so you'd be looking at some pretty trick custom pipework ... would the (potential) gains be big enough to make it worthwhile?

Oli.

ETA: On the brakes front, you are all being big-bloused wusses! Try driving a Mk1 Golf GTi for a while ... you very quickly learn that brakes are slightly optional, and you can drive around poor/non-existent braking with a bit of practice ...

I know of a 3.4L engine in the US and there is at least one being built right now that is bigger. As Jon says, traction and other issues become paramount.
In regards to 8v or 16v, well I believe the standard 8v 944 turbo head flows just under 190cfms. You can spend a lot of money to get up to 250cfm and maybe a little bit more. The stock 16v 968 head flows well into the 300's and with some work a lot more. On the larger capacity motors that are springing up they have so much more torque that the multi-valve heads are a natural progression. Having just driven my 250cfm 8v head with Big Cam for a few days straight, there can be a lot of gains just with the 8v though. I can't begin to imagine just how strong the top end (rpm wise) a 3.0L+ w 16v head is going to be?!?!
I don't think the Big Reds are going to be sufficient for this car in time either.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: Hilux
The standard brakes/pads even when uprated with better pads are not really designed to take the hugely increased speeds achievable or the big yellows/reds etc on more powerful Porsche models would be superfluous. The standard Mo30 brakes will be adequate but only if the car is driven within the normal engine power parameters. Thats my personal view and having messed around with light kit cars with more than adequate brakes with more power you still need bigger better brakes.

Thats right and it is worth noting that it is not all about piston sizes - it is also about pad area. The late turbo/M030 medium blacks have the same piston dia than BB's so you may ask why are BB's able to handle more braking if the piston dia's are the same? This is because the BB's have 30% extra pad area so it means that you need less clamping force to generate the same friction, therefore you have lower temps (temp is a function of clamping force) - i.e. the amount of energy dissapated is a function of pad area and force - so as you increase your pad area you need less braking force to dissapate the same amount of energy i.e. lower temps.

Anyway, back to engines. So what benefit would 16v give these engines? I note that Patrics car has a 16v head, so what is the benefit of the use of the 2.7 big 8v head?

 

[333pg333]

Scott, my current 3.0L car has a high flow 8v head at the moment. We are working on something else that will have a 16v head later this year. I must say that the 8v head can be improved upon and if you could feel just how alive my car gets in the upper rpms with the Big cam you'd be very surprised and would want one too.[]