3.2 First Impressions

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: DivineE
"However he seemed to think that it would be an easier conversion if you had the non-M030 hubs. "
If your serious then I love this statement!! Makes me finally feel better about my early hubs. How do I go about investigating all that I would need to do the conversion? ..sounds complicated! Why doesn't someone in the UK offer a kit.. Jon??[]

Go onto Rennlist and do a search. The chap is based in Sweden and basically did it off his own back as a project rather than as a commercial venture. The front conversion was quite simple and just involved a bracket made up. The rears were a bit more tricky and required a mod to the handbrake mechanism as well. Cost? Well you are looking at £350 per disc for starters, then probably about £1k for the calipers and a good few hundred quid for the pads - and that's just for the fronts - so you are looking at a tidy sum. I think all of a sudden the BB's looks like a sensible and capable alternative. Also as Patrick has inferred, you'd probably want to look at an upgrade to the master cylinder unless you want to cut a hole in your bulkhead to accommodate the extra brake pedal travel!!

Patrick - don't worry. I already want one. Badly!! However I cannot even begin to consider spending that sort of money on my car, unless I start dressing my little 'un in sack cloths and send her down the mines to earn a bit of extra coin! The 2.5ltr job that Paul and John have mentioned is a bit more like it for me. I seem to be working towards something like that but backwards - brakes, suspension, bodywork, LSD (or Torsen diff) then maybe some more serious attention under the bonnet. But I think i'll only be able to consider sticking to 2.5ltr. In a strange way i'm quite interested to see what the 2.5ltr is capable of. I might be able to stretch to the Vitesse stage 3 kit in the meantime to tide me over, but I don't want to fall into the trap of spending all my spare cash on the car and not being able to afford to drive it and track it. Sort of defeats the object. Love reading about your projects though. I'm very envious.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

If your still popping down on friday Paul, I should be able to get you a ride in the turbo cab

I'm there [8D]

Hood down, shades on for some of your south coast fair weather please. It will be interesting to see what one of these puny 2.5's can do [] (tongue firmly in cheek)

 

[333pg333]

All you have to do is go on Rennlist in the 944 turbo forum and mention 6 piston calipers and Olli comes flying out of the clouds to show you his pics. They are very nicely done and that is an early offset car. On the later ones the bolt holes are too close to make a bracket so and I am sourcing an alternative.
Scott, as you can see from Jon's dyno, there is a lot of power available for the 2.5L. Evil 944t is making a 1.88L that is projected to have over 600hp with very little torque though. This is for a race car that will spin up to 10,000rpms. Can't wait to hear that one at full cry!!

 

[Indi9xx]

I'm there

Give me a rough estimate of what time you will be here and I will get Nick to pop in with it

 

[Indi9xx]

Brakes...

The problem is heat and getting rid of it and using it to do something else other than boil the fluid, or reducing its build up in the first place.. Ideally without increasing unsprung mass... People often loose sight of this and go searching for something just on the basis of it being bigger.

There are many things that can be done about this, especially if you start thinking outside of the box (the box that contains 996 GT3 parts as the holy grail)

 

[Peter Empson]

Wait till you see the size of my brake ducts on my new front bumper [] (that's assuming we can make it fit...). I'm fully expecting to have to remove most of the wildlife population from them after every drive [] (and the drag will probably be so bad that the car will nver go fast enough to overheat the brakes anyway ).

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

There are many things that can be done about this, especially if you start thinking outside of the box (the box that contains 996 GT3 parts as the holy grail)

I recall seeing, many years ago, a touring car with water-cooled front calipers. Yes, the engine cooling system had two small spurs which ran the coolant through the calipers as well.

Something like that would seem to be the logical progression, but would require either specialist calipers or some kind of retro-fit water jackets (although whether you could get enough heat transfer from the calipers to the jackets would be a point of concern, I'd have thought.)


Oli.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

Give me a rough estimate of what time you will be here and I will get Nick to pop in with it

Phone call made, time agreed.

Woohoo I'm going for a ride in a 416bhp Cabriolet [], I hope it doesn't snap in half when he pushes the loud pedal.

The bad news is LIL will not be 100% finished tomorrow [], close, but not quite. Must remember to take my camera

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

Brakes...

The problem is heat and getting rid of it and using it to do something else other than boil the fluid, or reducing its build up in the first place.. Ideally without increasing unsprung mass... People often loose sight of this and go searching for something just on the basis of it being bigger.

There are many things that can be done about this, especially if you start thinking outside of the box (the box that contains 996 GT3 parts as the holy grail)

Well there are different brands and also actual race brakes that have much lighter calipers. Rotors don't always have to be massive. Carbon is not necessarily the answer and out of reach of most mortals. Then you can look at Tilton type arrangments. I don't believe that our master cylinders are up to the job. Others don't believe that ABS and brake boosters can regenerate fast enough to apply full force each time. Of course making our cars lighter will always help too.
There are some options to the GT3 stuff as Jon alludes to.

 

[Hilux]

Brakes...

The problem is heat and getting rid of it and using it to do something else other than boil the fluid, or reducing its build up in the first place.. Ideally without increasing unsprung mass... People often loose sight of this and go searching for something just on the basis of it being bigger.

There are many things that can be done about this, especially if you start thinking outside of the box (the box that contains 996 GT3 parts as the holy grail)

Absolutely agree..........but............

On a lot of car enthusist forums people try and emulate race/rally cars. This is fine if thats what the car is to be used for. eg: a Caterham owner had his drive shafts line bored to save a few grams but I (personally) would have saved more weight by having a huge satisfying dump in the morning or missing breakfast. Thats because it will not make a jot as to how fast I go on the road and I`m not good enough for it to make a jot of difference on track (and neither was he I learned) but it made a talking point among his pot bellied fellow catering van drivers []

Unsprung weight can help with handling but if its me then the offset of unsprung weight as against the guaranteed release of a lot of additional kinetic energy (heat) is not an issue.

I would have thought that Alcon or Bremsport billet type ally calipers could be made fit with simple caliper adaptors. I would also imagine that the fully enclosed rears (out of the airflow) would also do more work and benefit from ducting on a 400bhp plus car. Dont forget that they will have to do more work and as they fail will add to front brake loads until the back overtakes the front when they are practically on fire. Ask me how I know on Westfields [8|]................

 

[sawood12]

Well there has to be a case for electrically actuated brakes now that technology has moved on. Take the temp effects out of the equation.

 

[333pg333]

I would think that any retardation involves friction that in turn involves heat though Scott?

 

[sawood12]

Yes, but heat affects the fluid and causes fade so if you take the fluid out of the equation then you take the problem away. Pads and discs can be made of materials that can cope with heat. For example ceramic brakes generate much higher heat than steel ones, but the heat is not conducted to the fluid as ceramic materials don't conduct heat very well. With electrically actuated brakes with carbon ceramic discs and pads you can generate as much heat as you like. Unfortunately carbon ceramic brake linings and discs are too costly and delicate for use on a normal car, but higher manufacturing volumes will cheapen them and the carbon ceramic material can be developed to be more robust - eventually. The coefficient of friction for carbon ceramic discs increases with heat, but decreases for metal, so carbon cermic materials are much better suited for brake applications than metal.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

I would think that any retardation involves friction that in turn involves heat though Scott?

Just musing ... you could do it by induction drag, which would produce no heat at all.

Or EM repulsion. Which would produce minimal heat as well.

Oli.

 

[Diver944]

Ceramics
Electric actuation
Induction drag
EM repulsion

Just shut it you lot, I'm skint enough as it is []

Big Blacks will do for me for the time being with 3" ducting from the bumper to the disk as I had before

 

[MarkK]

Have fun today[]

 

[appletonn]

Paul, do you have any pics of the ducting to your front brakes at all?

My 91 car has no 'deflectors' on the lower arm or around the upright and I would like to see how easy it would be for me to improve the airflow to my front disks.

I have fitted new disks with Porterfield pads (which, by the way, squeal like a bar steward when cold[&:]) but want to improve the cooling before venturing on track!

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: appletonn

Paul, do you have any pics of the ducting to your front brakes at all?

I've just checked all my photo folders and unfortunately I don't [&:]

You should have a deflector on each strut as standard and if you look at the underside of your front bumper you should see there are two indentations which are designed to suck air up towards the deflectors and then into your brake disk.

My car is M030 as standard so it also has two oblong ducts 6" x 3" straight through the front bumper, just under the foglights and appearing at the front of the wheel arch liner. I simply removed my deflector plates from the strut and bolted a 2" flexi pipe onto the resultant threads, fed the pipe along the inner wheel arch and taped it securely into each duct in the bumper. A simple test with a hairdryer (borrowed from a Cabrio owner []) showed an awful lot more air appearing at the brake disk than before.

Your best bet without the bumper ducts would be to fit the 968 deflector 'ears'. These are similar to the 944 deflector plates but the ears hanging down from the wishbone and scoop up air that is passing underneath. Not all 944 wishbones have the mounting point to fix them but I believe they can be made to fit. Thom on this forum knows more about them as I think he has them

 

[Hilux]

For example ceramic brakes generate much higher heat than steel ones, but the heat is not conducted to the fluid as ceramic materials don't conduct heat very well.

Its the piston heating up from the pad that transfers most of the the heat directly so why dont they cap the piston with ceramic?

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: Diver944
Your best bet without the bumper ducts would be to fit the 968 deflector 'ears'. These are similar to the 944 deflector plates but the ears hanging down from the wishbone and scoop up air that is passing underneath. Not all 944 wishbones have the mounting point to fix them but I believe they can be made to fit. Thom on this forum knows more about them as I think he has them

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=229893&mpage=1&key=968%2Cducts&#230275