3 litre 944 Turbo on track

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

Interesting point Neil. Some people are methodical in their driving, and others are instinctive. I have felt like I can get faster because I have always been a 'feel' driver which I will use the term reactive, whereas I think of methodical guys who have prescribed braking and turn in points down to a tiny irregularity in the bitumen as pro-active. Hence I have come to believe that my way is fast on the street or perhaps in a racing environment where you are dealing with a bunch of jostling cars. However I also sort of agree with you that when you are not thinking but just moving forwards at a rapid rate, that this can also be very quick.
When you see footage of yourself from an in car video and all the little shifts and shimmys of the wheel, you realise that it's all instinctive and reactive. How can it be anything else. Sure there are visual cues but even doing lap dashes in single file one finds oneself taking different lines throughout the day.

Which method is right??? That is the question. Perhaps a combination of both.

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

I haven't raced yet either but something I have learned from my small amount of karting is that if your having to think about the driving and the lines your nowhere. This became abundantly apparent to me a couple of years back when my arms got tired and I had to do the last dozen or so laps on instinct. To my surprise when I looked at the time sheet afterwards all those laps where not only my fastest but within 0.3 seconds of each other. You go faster when you think less. Hopefully if I can get the same smoothness and consistency in the S2 it will give me a base to work from and improve.

I suspect Patrick that it always has to be a bit of both. As I am an engineer by day it naturally follows that I take a very analytical and methodical approach to anything really. At the end of the day though no one is a robot and like you say situations change so you have to adapt. One thing I do know from my very limited experience is that it takes me a long time to learn, but I chip away a little at a time always looking for more as in where and how to go on the throttle quicker and harder, where and how to minimise the time when not either braking or accelerating hard. I hope this doesn't hold me back this year as I probably have less experience of UK tracks then anyone else on here taking up racing this year. No doubt this year will be a massive learning experience but unless someone says otherwise my belief of methodical off the track and instinctual on it must be correct as you just don't have the time to analyse what you are doing at the time, to much going on.

 

[Mr968]

If you have a look at the formula 1 drivers they leave very little to chance, methodical down to fractions of a second, studying telemetry, when something goes wrong adrenaline will kick in with a bit of free thinking and it will become 'seat of the pants' until they can get back to 'working the system', any racing driver given the chance will walk the track looking for any clues on how to drive it.
As with most things it's difficult to claim absolutes, so it has to be a mixture of both and a lot in between.
If you've worked in production engineering for efficiency(time/motion) you'll know that you you will try to get as close to 100% repetition as possible when you find the most efficient way of doing a task, when something breaks down you are into firefighting. But then again you may have a system in place for the crisis.[]

As a contrast to F1 drivers, there are the rally drivers where the surface might chance each time they visit it. If you watch a video of their footwork it can only be instinctive, but I would say that they are aiming for their perfect line and trying to keep to a system in terms of where the car should be on the track for any given corner.

Just thoughts.

 

[Mr968]

Interesting article inside the cover of Grandstand, the Porsche Post supplement.

 

[Neil Haughey]

Many interesting articles Stu. It seems this years club championship is going to be one of the most competitive ever with several ex champions competing. I knew Jez Clark had been around club racing for a long time, didn't know it was that long a 'career', and very successful to boot. Genuinely nice guy.

Quicky question for y'all. Who if any track day organisers don't mind if I run with a data logger? Steve Kevlins comments in the mag suggest not at PCGB trackdays.

 

[paulf968]

And p56 of the May 2010 issue of 911 & Porscheworld features an article on Baz's car -- words by Adam Towler.

Neil - currently 12 people entered for Class 1 of the PCGB Championship -- and it is believed that Jez will be entering as well in a County Classics 968, so that makes at least 13.

CAR No & NAME
3 Peter Morris
10 Richard Ellis
14 Mark McAleer
33 Malcolm Jones
46 Miles Maserati
64 Kevin Harrisom
65 Mike Clapham
68 Richard Higgins
77 Mark Sumpter
87 Ed Hayes
90 Paul Follett
99 Marcus Carniel
TBC Jez Clark

One or two missing from 2009 but an amazingly competitive bunch nevertheless -- I now know what size the mountain I have to climb is !!

First two races are at Brands on April 10th - come along should be very interesting.

ps also two races for the new PCGB GT3 Challenge but entries for that seem low -- hope there is enough for it to run.

 

[Mr968]

Hi Neil, I think you'll find most track day companies 'frown upon' any kind of timing laps, along the lines of "just enjoy it and be safe rather than worrying about lap times".
Although we are all keen to see what improvements we can make and the easiest way of doing that is to see your lap time come down.

 

[paulf968]

Running a video camera is usually allowed on a trackday, providing it is fixed properly -- so that can 'give' you estimated laptimes accurate to say 1 second -- IMO that is accurate enough for most of us to see how we are getting on. Mind you getting clear laps is another issue!

I have started to do more test days this season and last time out borrowed a datalogger. Also had Ben D with me and he laid down some laps - my own progress could then be compared to his - it was quite revealing and gave more facts than coaching which is of course subjective. Downside is you need a race licence and cannot take a passenger when testing.

 

[Neil Haughey]

Test days definitely the way to go, I have the dates at Combe the problem is more that I have to start there and elsewhere on track days. Looks like an order for one of those little flash recorder gopro cameras will be going in.

Paul did you generate some G-G plots from your laps? Would be interesting to know how much g a typical club championship car pulls in each direction.

I can see as well why Stu has resurrected this thread [], the inside cover of Grandstand has an article showing some data logger output looking at a section of track, taking a wider line as Druids was shown to be over 0.67 seconds a lap faster.

 

[MarkK]

I did a test day at Snetterton last week with the classic sports car club,really enjoyed it,completely different vibe to a trackday found it very safe aswell.Rain called an early halt but managed a few moist to dry laps,test days are something i would like to do more of.Splashed out on a set of "wets"(normal sports road tyres are whats allowed) as my Tr888s were a bit scary as it got wetter wouldn't want to race in rainy conditions on them....

 

[DivineE]

Just read that article in 911 & Porsche world about Barry's car. Nice to hear a journalist who works for more mainstream magazines like CAR and EVO discovering what we already know about the 944's handling Made me feel good to read.. and want a 3.0 turbo again.

p.s. I'm a freak and race (in go karting at least[]) a lot faster in the wet than the dry. Driving in the pouring rain on slick tires I set the fastest lap on the track against a national karting racer amongst others (only my 2nd time on the circuit) then shocked everyone by smashing my own lap by over a second on a lap of only 1.15secs. I was about 8th when it was dry. Maybe its because I prefer sliding round all the bends[]

 

[Neil Haughey]

Hi Ben, this is where my brother used to work
http://www.gpkarting.com/circuits_and_karts.html
...in the hut like building at the end of the track tinkering with the karts. Haven't been to that place in many years though. Where do you do your karting is it down at Milton Keynes or over at this place
http://www.whiltonmill.co.uk/karting.php
...seems to have been massively developed over the years.

Anyways its interesting karting is mentioned as the wait for my car means I will be trying to get over to Clay Pigeon to help sharpen back up again. Might also look into their endurance series because its both tough and a way of getting back into some race craft.

 

[MarkK]

The wet scares the hell out of me,don't like it at all,i have hit standing water on the motorway not going that quickly[8|] in a 911 on Michelin cups,i nearly visted a field next to the motorway!!!When i went to Spa at the end of last year it was hoofing it down and a river was going across the pit straight i was gingerly following an M3 and he gave it some gas at the wrong moment did a backwaqrds 360 into the pitwall,all these things are in my head everytime i drive a car in the wet especially when caught out with dry type tyres.Ben you are bonkers![]

 

[paulf968]

Mark hi - the right tyres AND some set up changes is the way to go for more confidence in the wet.

Wet all day at Silverstone today - softened off my GAZ 2 clicks all round, then later completely disconnected my front arb -- it made a surrpising amount of confidence giving improvement, in fact if I'd had more time I would of done the same to the rear arb.

NB the KAAZ lsd (which we both share?) can appear a bit brutal in the wet -- only ever add power when the car is running straight -- otherwise you will have some real bum clenchers!

 

[Diver944]

Great news about the 911 & Porsche world article. I must pop out at lunchtime and get a copy []

 

[MarkK]

I would like a copy too!
My Diff is just the standard Turbo S diff,just had new bearings fitted,not has full on as yours Mr F[]

 

[Neil Haughey]

Bit of thread resurrection this one but I thought it worthwhile to post an in car vid from Ben Demetrious win at Oulton a couple of years back
http://carrera.smugmug.com/Videos/Oulton-Park-2009/12132870_wpaJM#863677374_b65RQ-A-LB

Forget the lines note how often he is modulating the throttle, nice [8D]

 

[333pg333]

Most enjoyable Neil! So this is a race prepped S2 he's driving? Interesting to watch as the 964 had his measure with a bit more poke out of some corners and down the straights, but
Ben had him under brakes and through a few of the faster sweepers. There was one corner where he kept catching up (Slow tight R-hander) that he lost a lot of momentum however
constant pressure paid off. Thanks for posting.


ps, to Paul F and others who run with the KAAZ lsds, how do you find them now that you've had them for a decent duration? I'm having one installed into a 968 box and it would appear that
they are multi adjustable. What settings have you guys found to be the best overall?

This from Roger at CMS who I'm getting the trans from;

"The KAAZ comes with 1.5 way asymmetric ramps meaning the decel side will be half that of the accel side. If the ramps are installed upside down/backward then it would reverse. The decel side would be twice that of the accel side.

So the settings possible are (accel/decel) 90/45 (3 active frictions per side), 60/30 (2 active frictions per side), 30/15 (1 active friction per side). Or if the ramps are installed upside down, 45/90, 30/60, 15/30 is possible.

Modena's traditional ramp angles were 40/60, 50/80 and 80/80. And they are double adjustable."

 

[Neil Haughey]

Thanks Patrick, Ben was driving a 968 though. I don't believe anyone has yet managed to win a PCGB Championship race outright in an S2, the closest ISTR was Charlie Wintahalder at Thruxton a few years back. Typically an S2 is about 1 second a lap slower than a 968 all though obviously there is variability in that for different tracks and drivers.

I can't really help you with the LSD question although from last years experience corner exit oversteer was never a problem for me (massive corner entry oversteer and moderate exit understeer which pointed to a basic error in the chosen spring rates). I think the problem is that with race suspension and wide track widths especially on the front the car has a tendency to just push with NA power although all the 968's run an LSD as they have enough grunt to need it. Maybe as your running so much more power and torque you might need plenty of accel lock I don't know.

 

[MarkK]

I really enjoyed that clip,the 964 was a little twitchier as the laps went on as his rear tyres got hotter and with the pressure from the 968,made for entertaining viewing,I am going to watch it again right now.Great[]

 

[Neil Haughey]

Its a great clip, well worth studying as Ben has posted some pretty hot times at Oulton.

I especially like the fact that on *that* corner talked about so much earlier in this thread the key point is how often he has to counter steer and catch the car in between the 2 right handers.