3 litre 944 Turbo on track
- Thread starter Diver944
- Start date
Big Dave
New member
OOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Were feisty today arnt we.????
I think your getting a bit of dementia mate, as some of the points above are a tad wrong...Mind you it was a good 4 years ago, if not more...
Ok chaps, fun time is finished..., But it was good whilst it lasted....[
][][][][][][][][]. Sorry Pat, youl have to finish the popcorn....[][][]Hats off to Barry for producing this car / engine....Back to talking about the engine....
Mr968
Member
well the Troll started it [
][][][]seriously though,
it is an interesting question, I have tended to find though that I can exit Druids pretty quick when using that line while other cars are struggling with the steering, as mentioned the thing that holds you up is having to overtake on the left and waiting for the othr driver to realise that you are coming up pretty quick on the left.
I would say that if overtaking on the right where allowed there would be even more chance for overtaking coming out of Druids.
We must all have seen single make races where one driver just cannot overtake on the racing line because the lead driver(P1) has the line, but P1 has to continue with the line over to the outside of the corner because of his speed, he has no choice.
Both cars are of similar performance so cannot overtake on the straight, so what can P2 do.
P2 driver takes a wider line and crosses behind P1 to overtake on the exit straight because of his higher exit speed.
Having a straighter line across the apex he is able to start accelerating earlier. Throw in a dip at the exit which is worse over to the outside and it makes sense to be going as straight as possible a bit more over to the middle of the track on the exit.
Just my theory not for everybody, but it does seem to work(apart from not being able to overtake on the right of course).
If this were an absolute though Stu, we would all be late apexing. I'm not saying I disagree with the theory but we've all seen good drivers take different approaches to the same part of the track. Makes it interesting.
On a side note, I find it strange that you've joined in something that has gone beyond jocular banter in a way that you wouldn't permit on your site. Not that I care a jot. I don't find this stuff bothersome at all, but I have seen you step in for less on the 968 forums.
Just saying...
On a side note, I find it strange that you've joined in something that has gone beyond jocular banter in a way that you wouldn't permit on your site. Not that I care a jot. I don't find this stuff bothersome at all, but I have seen you step in for less on the 968 forums.
Just saying...
Mr968
Member
absolutely right, the line is there if you want it,
don't use it,
use it sometimes,
use it all the time,
depends what works on the day, on the lap, in that car, with those tyres, with those brakes, with your acceleration, and all those variables with the car in front and the car behind and the track conditions.
Under certain circumstances it works under other circumstances it doesn't.
Common sense added to the seat of your pants will tell you as you approach the bend what you should do, what line you should take.
If there was no traffic I would possibly take a nice curve across the second apex.
But on a hot lap do I want to be going across the dip at 10/10s where it is worst, if it goes wrong there .... you're going to have a bad day.
If there is traffic and the lead car has similar performance but you know you could get past by taking a different line then why not use it.
It's just common sense to me so I don't understand why some people get so het up about the lines.
Watch a single make race and tell me that the drivers don't take any line they can to overtake and sometimes even succeed, it's all down to the circumstances in those few seconds of decision making.
Chicanes are a good example, do you take a nice curve through all corners, or try to overtake by making the last corner as straight as possible, Foulstons is a good example.
If you can get your revs up earlier at Foulstons by accelerating sooner then you have a better chance because you are about to go uphill and you need the revs.
(It is on the video and is in stark comparison to other videos linked to, but wasn't picked up on.)
Let's not get into a row about Foulstons though.[
]There is the text book lines, which anybody can buy and I think I do have a copy for Oulton Park somewhere, but it pays to go out with different instructors to hear their own views on different days and different traffic situations, it may cost a little bit of money but it does pay dividends and don't stick to 1 instructor, go out with many, one may be a Formula 3 racing driver another might be a rally instructor, they all have different driving styles and have something to offer.
You can always get pleasure from driving around a track but if it's safe try a different line or 2 see what works for you in different circumstances.
Most of us know we are still learning day by day, be wary of 'driving gods'.
I always keep in mind 'every day is a school day' and we only stop learning when we are dead.
(I've sent you a PM about your other point)
Diver944
Active member
I have to admit I've always preferred the late apex approach, especially with the pre modified engine and a fair bit of Turbo lag. Apexing late allows you to get on the power earlier without fear of the turbo cutting in whilst you are less than straight.
Obviously in a race situation you could be overatken on the inside when coming into the corner like that but then I'm not a racer [
]
Mr968
Member
fully agree, whatever you do, whatever line you take, enjoy the day, it's all a bit serious when it's bickering over which line is best.
I'll never forget(well maybe some of the details, what with the dementia setting in[
]) a particular day at Donington, I think I was in a car with somebody else(possibly Dave Hooper), coming out of Hollywood and there on a glorious bright sunny summers day was the circuit, beloved Spitfire to the right and ahead in the valley we had Craners, Old Hairpin, Starkeys to go through, what a beautiful moment.Probably romanticising a bit too much(don't worry Dave H [
]) but it was one of those moments when you think 'I could do this all day'.frogisland
New member
An interesting read "" both the opinion of lines and the trolling! Druids is an unforgiving corner, but equally exciting and rewarding when you feel you have taken an accomplished line through.
Despite your detailed analysis of the corner, I don't' believe that either of you have the accuracy and consistency to carry out what you preach lap after lap, and all this talk of your exit speed etc is just rubbish "" glorified "˜pub' talk. We're talking about a "˜perfect' line here which we know does not exist, indeed, I believe Stu's view of the corner changed dramatically after lapping with a formula BMW driver who would certainly have some interesting lines, and Dave's revelation come from using fourth through the corner. The latter I adopted myself, and my view is that it is this predominant factor that altered and dictated the line we subsequently took it certainly shook things up somewhat "" that corner came and went so much quicker.
Above all, for those whom are unsure, this is trackday experience/talk, where despite thinking we are at times driving at 10/10ths, we're almost certainly not (read Paul F's comment earlier re Ben's time around Oulton "" puts our attempts into perspective). The emphasis and determination is very different when racing "" and the lines you take are usually determined by the cars around you.
Although only raced once, I entered Copse at Silverstone at what I thought was maximum speed with the perfect line in mind, apex in sight and aimed for only to be cut up by a GT3 cup car "" suddenly having to take a wider line and struggling to get around, very hairy bottom clenching time. The point, irrespective of the lines we talk about, there is a "˜third' dimension that I became aware of even in that one race, you are going hell for leather around a corner, and despite what line you need to be following at any one point, you can always guarantee you will be pushed off onto one that that is far out of your comfort zone "" but you have to deal with it.
So despite all this talk of a prefect line with certain positions avoiding certain track/car characteristics, bear in mind being forced off that line mid corner. It makes all this talk look rather anal, and somewhat misguided, especially on a track day.
Dave, although I read with pleasure your trolling and the usual mutual responses, it does degrade the thread and deteriorate quickly into a lot of negativity. Stu, whether or not it is advice you will take on board from ME, as noted above you would not accept your comments on your forum so why lower your morals/values and bring them over here?
Dave/Stu "" the "˜proof of the pudding' is going to be this year. Three of us (Dave, myself and small Paul) are racing e30's. We'll let you know how we get on, how much of what we discuss has been utter drivel and when we finish near the back (because we will) you can say (Stu in particular) we always thought you were rubbish (and you need some instruction!!!)
Enjoyed the bit about Hartech's car though! Stu "" thought you might have pulled a 10/10ths out of the bag for the video?
JP
edited for font size/spacing!
Despite your detailed analysis of the corner, I don't' believe that either of you have the accuracy and consistency to carry out what you preach lap after lap, and all this talk of your exit speed etc is just rubbish "" glorified "˜pub' talk. We're talking about a "˜perfect' line here which we know does not exist, indeed, I believe Stu's view of the corner changed dramatically after lapping with a formula BMW driver who would certainly have some interesting lines, and Dave's revelation come from using fourth through the corner. The latter I adopted myself, and my view is that it is this predominant factor that altered and dictated the line we subsequently took it certainly shook things up somewhat "" that corner came and went so much quicker.
Above all, for those whom are unsure, this is trackday experience/talk, where despite thinking we are at times driving at 10/10ths, we're almost certainly not (read Paul F's comment earlier re Ben's time around Oulton "" puts our attempts into perspective). The emphasis and determination is very different when racing "" and the lines you take are usually determined by the cars around you.
Although only raced once, I entered Copse at Silverstone at what I thought was maximum speed with the perfect line in mind, apex in sight and aimed for only to be cut up by a GT3 cup car "" suddenly having to take a wider line and struggling to get around, very hairy bottom clenching time. The point, irrespective of the lines we talk about, there is a "˜third' dimension that I became aware of even in that one race, you are going hell for leather around a corner, and despite what line you need to be following at any one point, you can always guarantee you will be pushed off onto one that that is far out of your comfort zone "" but you have to deal with it.
So despite all this talk of a prefect line with certain positions avoiding certain track/car characteristics, bear in mind being forced off that line mid corner. It makes all this talk look rather anal, and somewhat misguided, especially on a track day.
Dave, although I read with pleasure your trolling and the usual mutual responses, it does degrade the thread and deteriorate quickly into a lot of negativity. Stu, whether or not it is advice you will take on board from ME, as noted above you would not accept your comments on your forum so why lower your morals/values and bring them over here?
Dave/Stu "" the "˜proof of the pudding' is going to be this year. Three of us (Dave, myself and small Paul) are racing e30's. We'll let you know how we get on, how much of what we discuss has been utter drivel and when we finish near the back (because we will) you can say (Stu in particular) we always thought you were rubbish (and you need some instruction!!!)
Enjoyed the bit about Hartech's car though! Stu "" thought you might have pulled a 10/10ths out of the bag for the video?
JP
edited for font size/spacing!
Mr968
Member
REALLY? - in an unfamiliar car? Perhaps not the best advice you could give.[
]The video wasn't of consequence for the drive itself, I was merely getting a feel for the car to relay that info back to Barry and I also drove a 2.5 Turbo on the same day as a comparison.
Not even sure 10/10s is my 'bag', for me it's more about a smooth enjoyable drive and trying to get the most out of the car perhaps at a lower level than 10/10s, you may see it differently as you will perhaps need to be 10/10s as everybody else around you will be if you are racing, I would probably be the same if I went into racing.
On a track day possibly the enjoyment of getting a slightly better lap time by trying different lines at maybe 8/10s gives some people more of an enjoyable day rather than at 10/10s.
You won't find me criticising anybody's driving Jason(unless in retalliation of course[
]).It's a shame that anybody wants to Troll on any forum, as you say it just takes away from the enjoyment of shared knowledge and experiences, and chaps I offer my apologies for rising to the bait.
Perhaps a good time to end this and keep it on topic.
frogisland
New member
Constructive feedback []
We should be racing on the 24th July at Oulton, Druids might be a good corner to watch......then we will be receptive to all the constructive feedback you can give, trackdrivers and none track drivers [] Advice on lines beforehand will be taken with a pinch of salt....even me listening to Dave (and vice versa) [] (although i will always suggests ones to him that may give me competitive advantage [])
]We should be racing on the 24th July at Oulton, Druids might be a good corner to watch......then we will be receptive to all the constructive feedback you can give, trackdrivers and none track drivers [
] Advice on lines beforehand will be taken with a pinch of salt....even me listening to Dave (and vice versa) [] (although i will always suggests ones to him that may give me competitive advantage [])
DivineE
New member
Just to add my 10penith because I love discussions about driving. I tend always to go by the theory that its better to turn in late than too early. When your driving at 10/10ths there's always that adrenaline telling you your going fast and you have to start to turn the car in NOW NOW NOW. However its a gut wrenching feeling when you've turned in on a constant line and realised you've clipped the inside too early meaning your going to have to turn tighter and understeer wide or dab the brakes and collect the back end.
If I don't know a corner too well or I was teaching someone I would always turn in later and be 100% sure I'm going to be able to unwind the lock from the apex out. However if you know the corner so well that you have found the perfect line great.
I think Dave's line looks very hard to perfect and maybe better for an N/A car with a linear throttle where you can balance it at maximum G all the way through the bend keeping excellent average speed. In my old M3 I'm certain Dave's line would have been faster. However in a turbo Dave is still turning hard quite late out of the bend and you wouldn't want to get back on the throttle until your unwinding lock meaning with the lag an N/A car behind you could get a good run on you out of the bend before you get back on boost. If you take Stuarts line your not travelling as fast in the middle of the bend but this allows you more leeway with the throttle to get the turbo spinning and spit you out of the bend as your unwinding the lock.
If I don't know a corner too well or I was teaching someone I would always turn in later and be 100% sure I'm going to be able to unwind the lock from the apex out. However if you know the corner so well that you have found the perfect line great.
I think Dave's line looks very hard to perfect and maybe better for an N/A car with a linear throttle where you can balance it at maximum G all the way through the bend keeping excellent average speed. In my old M3 I'm certain Dave's line would have been faster. However in a turbo Dave is still turning hard quite late out of the bend and you wouldn't want to get back on the throttle until your unwinding lock meaning with the lag an N/A car behind you could get a good run on you out of the bend before you get back on boost. If you take Stuarts line your not travelling as fast in the middle of the bend but this allows you more leeway with the throttle to get the turbo spinning and spit you out of the bend as your unwinding the lock.
Hilux
New member
A voice of reason. If you only do three or four track days a year then it doesnt matter what line you take as long as you learn and enjoy it. I lapped a Neinmeister 968 a couple of years ago but it was in and out of the pits sorting the suspension so doesnt mean I`m a driving god.
Proper fun is actually building a car and seeing if it works [
] now thats exciting.Neil Haughey
New member
Well I for one am under no illusions, I am glad the 968 boys have put aside the ego, it was getting frankly silly. Posting video links of driving at 8/10's at then arguing about lines and who is a better driver just makes us all look a bit sad really. I haven't raced yet either but something I have learned from my small amount of karting is that if your having to think about the driving and the lines your nowhere. This became abundantly apparent to me a couple of years back when my arms got tired and I had to do the last dozen or so laps on instinct. To my surprise when I looked at the time sheet afterwards all those laps where not only my fastest but within 0.3 seconds of each other. You go faster when you think less. Hopefully if I can get the same smoothness and consistency in the S2 it will give me a base to work from and improve.
BTW my plan is to concentrate on Combe as my local track at first and try to get myself and the car together via their club championship (if they will take me), learn that track and get a good pace up before hopefully moving out onto the other tracks. Kevin Eacock says I am a pussy and should just get stuck into one of the wider championships []
BTW my plan is to concentrate on Combe as my local track at first and try to get myself and the car together via their club championship (if they will take me), learn that track and get a good pace up before hopefully moving out onto the other tracks. Kevin Eacock says I am a pussy and should just get stuck into one of the wider championships [
]
DivineE
New member
ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey
Well I for one am under no illusions, I am glad the 968 boys have put aside the ego, it was getting frankly silly. Posting video links of driving at 8/10's at then arguing about lines and who is a better driver just makes us all look a bit sad really. I haven't raced yet either but something I have learned from my small amount of karting is that if your having to think about the driving and the lines your nowhere. This became abundantly apparent to me a couple of years back when my arms got tired and I had to do the last dozen or so laps on instinct. To my surprise when I looked at the time sheet afterwards all those laps where not only my fastest but within 0.3 seconds of each other. You go faster when you think less. Hopefully if I can get the same smoothness and consistency in the S2 it will give me a base to work from and improve.
BTW my plan is to concentrate on Combe as my local track at first and try to get myself and the car together via their club championship (if they will take me), learn that track and get a good pace up before hopefully moving out onto the other tracks. Kevin Eacock says I am a pussy and should just get stuck into one of the wider championships [
I find a glass of wine or 1 stiff drink on the rocks improves my driving no end. My lines are far more fluid when I'm relaxed. Having said that the best 30mins I ever did was in a TVR where the adrenaline was so strong I felt like I could see things before they happened. I was on fire that night and nothing could catch me.. that said my only real competition was stuck behind a 3.0 V6 Clio that was refusing to pull over in his efforts to keep with me.
Interesting point Neil. Some people are methodical in their driving, and others are instinctive. I have felt like I can get faster because I have always been a 'feel' driver which I will use the term reactive, whereas I think of methodical guys who have prescribed braking and turn in points down to a tiny irregularity in the bitumen as pro-active. Hence I have come to believe that my way is fast on the street or perhaps in a racing environment where you are dealing with a bunch of jostling cars. However I also sort of agree with you that when you are not thinking but just moving forwards at a rapid rate, that this can also be very quick.
When you see footage of yourself from an in car video and all the little shifts and shimmys of the wheel, you realise that it's all instinctive and reactive. How can it be anything else. Sure there are visual cues but even doing lap dashes in single file one finds oneself taking different lines throughout the day.
Which method is right??? That is the question. Perhaps a combination of both.
When you see footage of yourself from an in car video and all the little shifts and shimmys of the wheel, you realise that it's all instinctive and reactive. How can it be anything else. Sure there are visual cues but even doing lap dashes in single file one finds oneself taking different lines throughout the day.
Which method is right??? That is the question. Perhaps a combination of both.
ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey
Well I for one am under no illusions, I am glad the 968 boys have put aside the ego, it was getting frankly silly. Posting video links of driving at 8/10's at then arguing about lines and who is a better driver just makes us all look a bit sad really. I haven't raced yet either but something I have learned from my small amount of karting is that if your having to think about the driving and the lines your nowhere. This became abundantly apparent to me a couple of years back when my arms got tired and I had to do the last dozen or so laps on instinct. To my surprise when I looked at the time sheet afterwards all those laps where not only my fastest but within 0.3 seconds of each other. You go faster when you think less. Hopefully if I can get the same smoothness and consistency in the S2 it will give me a base to work from and improve.
BTW my plan is to concentrate on Combe as my local track at first and try to get myself and the car together via their club championship (if they will take me), learn that track and get a good pace up before hopefully moving out onto the other tracks. Kevin Eacock says I am a pussy and should just get stuck into one of the wider championships [
edh
New member
ORIGINAL: DivineE
ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey
Well I for one am under no illusions, I am glad the 968 boys have put aside the ego, it was getting frankly silly. Posting video links of driving at 8/10's at then arguing about lines and who is a better driver just makes us all look a bit sad really. I haven't raced yet either but something I have learned from my small amount of karting is that if your having to think about the driving and the lines your nowhere. This became abundantly apparent to me a couple of years back when my arms got tired and I had to do the last dozen or so laps on instinct. To my surprise when I looked at the time sheet afterwards all those laps where not only my fastest but within 0.3 seconds of each other. You go faster when you think less. Hopefully if I can get the same smoothness and consistency in the S2 it will give me a base to work from and improve.
BTW my plan is to concentrate on Combe as my local track at first and try to get myself and the car together via their club championship (if they will take me), learn that track and get a good pace up before hopefully moving out onto the other tracks. Kevin Eacock says I am a pussy and should just get stuck into one of the wider championships [
I find a glass of wine or 1 stiff drink on the rocks improves my driving no end. My lines are far more fluid when I'm relaxed. Having said that the best 30mins I ever did was in a TVR where the adrenaline was so strong I felt like I could see things before they happened. I was on fire that night and nothing could catch me.. that said my only real competition was stuck behind a 3.0 V6 Clio that was refusing to pull over in his efforts to keep with me.
Ben - sometimes you really worry me....
Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members
Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions
