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3 litre 944 Turbo on track

ORIGINAL: edh

ORIGINAL: 944 man

There are any number of places that can bite you at OP. Druids has a reputation that everyone should be aware of before driving it though. Knickerbrook was natsy too: It did used to be worse, but its been altered to some degree after a number of high profile and very serious accidents there.

this one?  [:-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAvc0Cij7zA&feature=related

I was referring to Paul Warwick's fatal accident there: not the only one by a long chalk, but high profile.

All of OP needs to be treated with the greatest of care. Im aware of a massively experienced racer who had a very nasty accident at Hilltop into Knickerbrook in September that involved six rolls a lot of very nasty injures. He is regarded widely as a master of Oulton Park too...

Simon
 
The name Hunter Abbott springs to mind, this is one of the biggest smashes imaginable, and to think he walks away from it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6IZUzxRKUc&feature=related
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV99_BIqY4g&feature=related
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqSjRJ1sTrg&feature=related

Scary stuff.
 
That was nasty, wasnt it? The one Im thinking about wasnt filmed as it was only a club race. A couple of photographers Ive spoken to said that they didnt take pictures because they thought that the driver was dead (actually: broken arm, broken ribs, punctured lung & concussion)!
 
I'm sure people will look back at us in wonder and think why the hell did they race these funny little vehicles in such dangerous surroundings? You get one wheel half off the track and it's into a slick grass surface which almost certainly upsets the car most commonly in an 'off' to which you are met only yards away with totally unyielding armco!!! I mean how insane are we??? Why can't we utilise some common sense and invent some sort of system that employs a lot of impact absorption so that firstly deaths and major injuries are avoided, and secondly expensive damage to the cars is minimised?

Surely this is not Rocket Surgery?

Thoughts?
 
Neil -- not seen those before - yes, scary.

looks to me like he was trying to gain the left hand line but the Aston was still just there so he gave himself the gentlest of nudges and ended up scaling the armco.

is it just me or do those Ginetta's look a bit fragile? - mind you the cage seemed to have done its job for the driver - phew. Have to put such things well to the back of our minds.

ps I am doing a test day at Brands on 10th March - noticed there a a few G50's booked, various Carrera Cup Porsche's and some BTCC cars including Matt Neal. Getting the balance right between watching my mirrors and pushing on to the best of my own ability is going to be some personal challenge!
 

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

I'm sure people will look back at us in wonder and think why the hell did they race these funny little vehicles in such dangerous surroundings?

When I first started going to Oulton Park as a little boy (not that long ago btw), there wasnt any run-off. In fact, in most places, they didnt have armco at all, they had a ditch! I can also remember driving into the circuit through the lodge, down Deer Leap and in through the pits to the in-field. More recently you could spectate at Lodge: where the run-off is now they was a small scafolding stand. Ive got some brilliant oversteery pictures of my uncle fighting a V8 powered 'XR3i' in the 1989 Wendy Wools GT championship taken from whatd be the middle of the sand traps now...
 
ORIGINAL: 944 man


ORIGINAL: 333pg333

I'm sure people will look back at us in wonder and think why the hell did they race these funny little vehicles in such dangerous surroundings?

When I first started going to Oulton Park as a little boy (not that long ago btw), there wasnt any run-off. In fact, in most places, they didnt have armco at all, they had a ditch! I can also remember driving into the circuit through the lodge, down Deer Leap and in through the pits to the in-field. More recently you could spectate at Lodge: where the run-off is now they was a small scafolding stand. Ive got some brilliant oversteery pictures of my uncle fighting a V8 powered 'XR3i' in the 1989 Wendy Wools GT championship taken from whatd be the middle of the sand traps now...

I remember the second trackday I did in my old 944T, was at Oulton in November 08, having lost my 944T trackday cherry some 5 weeks earlier at Donington Park - a greater contrast I couldn't have imagined!!

Luckily I had had some sighting laps as a passenger with Big Dave (968 forum) and he was superb with his advice, but the first time i went round Druids in the damp, i think I was holding my breath![8|][:D]

My favourite circuit that I've driven thus far and oh so rewarding when you get some corners linked up but equally scary when your confidence starts to exceed your talent![:D]

Hoping to get my 'Beetle' out on Oulton later this year, funds permitting[8|]
 
Picking up on the debate from previous pages about the correct line through Druids at OP, although the video shows that the 944 is 'cruising' and not on a max attack lap, I reckon that's not a bad line through Druids at all: late turn in, miss the 1st apex, hit the 2nd apex and straight out onto the run for Lodge.

Although a lot more daunting, Druids is not too dissimilar in approach and missing of the 1st apex to the first corner at Snetterton Riches, IIRC.

I thought the in-car vid showed two good, smooth and well controlled laps at ~ 75% - not a bad pace to go at before speeding up.
 
Chris.
Druids should be taken buy missing the first apex BUT not as much as the pilot of the car advocates...
 
ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

The name Hunter Abbott springs to mind, this is one of the biggest smashes imaginable, and to think he walks away from it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6IZUzxRKUc&feature=related
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV99_BIqY4g&feature=related
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqSjRJ1sTrg&feature=related

Scary stuff.

That 2nd video scares the crap out of me! What a horrible moment to come from no fault of his own. That could be any moment of any in car camera on a track and not many cars are built that well to survive an accident like that. Horrible horrible moment makes my stomach drop.
 
[&:]scary stuff...its the fire that scares me,perish the thought,god bless those marshalls.
 
I'm sure people will look back at us in wonder and think why the hell did they race these funny little vehicles in such dangerous surroundings? You get one wheel half off the track and it's into a slick grass surface which almost certainly upsets the car most commonly in an 'off' to which you are met only yards away with totally unyielding armco!!! I mean how insane are we??? Why can't we utilise some common sense and invent some sort of system that employs a lot of impact absorption so that firstly deaths and major injuries are avoided, and secondly expensive damage to the cars is minimised?

Surely this is not Rocket Surgery?

I`m inclined to agree and wood posts and netting are long gone but however on a track day with your pride and joy its ideal. Kitty litter is fine for low racing cars as they tend to dig in but dig in sideways and you`ll roll however I once saw a german in a Pagoda roof mercedes (for some reason) barrel into Copse at full throttle never having slowed and go straight on into and over the KL and front end the armco which is a huge distance!!

Ironically a high surface friction tarmac would be better.
 

ORIGINAL: Big Dave

Chris.
Druids should be taken buy missing the first apex BUT not as much as the pilot of the car advocates...

Circuit guides and most footage I have seen suggest several feet as being ideal.
 
I reckon that's not a bad line through Druids at all: late turn in, miss the 1st apex, hit the 2nd apex and straight out onto the run for Lodge.

thanks Chris,

and just to be clear for Big Dipstick[;)]
(I knew you wouldn't be able to resist having a go, obviously having all those cats is rubbing off - MEEOOWWW)

The following is my opinion and is only an opinion on driving this corner at Oulton.
The reason that line is taken is for the very fact mentioned above, that you can start to accelerate from the 'back' of the corner rather than the 2nd apex, which on most occassions gives more exit speed and a straighter line onto the straight as is evident when you compare videos, it's not for everybody or every situation, but just my preference in most situations.

It also means that you are more in control of the steering when you go over the dip, which you can cross more to the centre of the track(where it is milder) rather than near to the rumble strip(where it is more severe), and this is where a lot of cars steering goes light for an instant as they accelerate while still having on significant steering input and then they get flicked off.

I chose this line from a number of instructors advice over the years going to Oulton Park starting in 1996 on the Nigell Mansell Racing School courses(crikey how time flies), you pays your money and takes your choice on the day and on the lap. There is no special law of physics which says that I can't use the 'standard' racing line that BD has taken from the textbook.
It would be interesting to see what the exit speeds are for both lines with the same car.
I would say that you do get held up on a track day waiting for some cars to move out of the way on the exit as you can only overtake on the left and most of the time they don't realise that you have approached them as quickly as you have.
If it was a race and there was only the 2 cars involved at the time, you could overtake on the inside of the corner pretty soon after the 2nd apex.

You do have to be careful as with any corner. The main issue is making sure that you don't get one of your wheels on the grass/gravel on the left if you run a bit too close to the edge. I did this in the track Capri but managed to recover it and come back onto track and just carry on(also with the 968 but on a different corner), thinking back I think I was able to do this because the car was in effect facing pretty much down the straight rather than at the Armco so maybe that's a point in favour of this line.[;)]


So as I mentioned not for everybody in every situation and I have certainly NEVER insisted that that is THE CORRECT LINE, but maybe something to try for yourself if the track is clear and conditions are good, you might just like the feeling of being able to overtake sometimes more expensive machinery on the exit.[;)]

BD ...... get a life it's now getting boring. [8|]
(Some advice for him with the vendetta. Always a bad idea setting yourself up as a driving god, especially if you've already written off at least 1 968 showing off to your mates how good a driver you are.[;)])
 

ORIGINAL: Mr968

Slightly off line on one bend perhaps a couple of tenths?

Neil,
which corner, always happy to listen, every day is a school day as they say.

Only a reference Stu to Dave's assertion that your line through Druids is all wrong. If you say you are convinced that a loss in one place is made up by a better sector time from a quicker exit then fair enough. This after all is the tie into the links I posted from and after that post as reference to the fact that there isn't one correct perfect line, both theoretical analysis and real world results show that isn't true but it doesn't stop ppl believing it.
 
ORIGINAL: Mr968

I reckon that's not a bad line through Druids at all: late turn in, miss the 1st apex, hit the 2nd apex and straight out onto the run for Lodge.

thanks Chris,

and just to be clear for Big Dipstick[;)]
(I knew you wouldn't be able to resist having a go, obviously having all those cats is rubbing off - MEEOOWWW)

The following is my opinion and is only an opinion on driving this corner at Oulton.
The reason that line is taken is for the very fact mentioned above, that you can start to accelerate from the 'back' of the corner rather than the 2nd apex, which on most occassions gives more exit speed and a straighter line onto the straight as is evident when you compare videos, it's not for everybody or every situation, but just my preference in most situations.

It also means that you are more in control of the steering when you go over the dip, which you can cross more to the centre of the track(where it is milder) rather than near to the rumble strip(where it is more severe), and this is where a lot of cars steering goes light for an instant as they accelerate while still having on significant steering input and then they get flicked off.

I chose this line from a number of instructors advice over the years going to Oulton Park starting in 1996 on the Nigell Mansell Racing School courses(crikey how time flies), you pays your money and takes your choice on the day and on the lap. There is no special law of physics which says that I can't use the 'standard' racing line that BD has taken from the textbook.
It would be interesting to see what the exit speeds are for both lines with the same car.
I would say that you do get held up on a track day waiting for some cars to move out of the way on the exit as you can only overtake on the left and most of the time they don't realise that you have approached them as quickly as you have.
If it was a race and there was only the 2 cars involved at the time, you could overtake on the inside of the corner pretty soon after the 2nd apex.

You do have to be careful as with any corner. The main issue is making sure that you don't get one of your wheels on the grass/gravel on the left if you run a bit too close to the edge. I did this in the track Capri but managed to recover it and come back onto track and just carry on(also with the 968 but on a different corner), thinking back I think I was able to do this because the car was in effect facing pretty much down the straight rather than at the Armco so maybe that's a point in favour of this line.[;)]


So as I mentioned not for everybody in every situation and I have certainly NEVER insisted that that is THE CORRECT LINE, but maybe something to try for yourself if the track is clear and conditions are good, you might just like the feeling of being able to overtake sometimes more expensive machinery on the exit.[;)]

BD ...... get a life it's now getting boring. [8|]
(Some advice for him with the vendetta. Always a bad idea setting yourself up as a driving god, especially if you've already written off at least 1 968 showing off to your mates how good a driver you are.[;)])

Talk about "hook line + sinker"...[:D]
Oh did i belly laugh at that one....[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] I think a few otheres have aswell...

No, mate , no "vendetta" just baiting the hook....+ DID you SO bite.....[;)][:D][;)][:D][;)][:D] Although i was beggining to think you werent going to bite.

Driving god now,, thats a good one.
Im CERTAINLY NOT one of those...Nore do i purport to be...
And YES i have written off one 968 [Im not hiding the fact, although im not proud of doing so],,+ that was on the public roads with nobody else involved or even in the passenger seat, so quite who i was "showing off to" ive no idea.???????????

At least i havnt "stacked" it on track.......Yet...... Unlike someone i could mention.
Cascades rings a bell.????[8|][8|][8|][8|][8|]

I guess we shall just have to agree to dissagree on this "line" subject..??
As we both think "our way" is correct.
 
aahh, yes you got me there didn't you, yep well done, give yourself a biscuit, [8|]

chaps what's that name for people who try to wind others up on forums, is it Trolls, ah here it is,
a technique known as trolling. The word also evokes the trolls portrayed in Scandinavian folklore and children's tales, as they are often creatures bent on mischief and wickedness.

At least i havnt "stacked" it on track.......Yet...... Unlike someone i could mention.
try reading my post
(also with the 968 but on a different corner)


that was on the public roads with nobody else involved
apart from the oncoming traffic that would no doubt have been a little 'upset' about the prospect of the oncoming spinning car on their side of the road hitting them.
or even in the passenger seat,
lets not talk about what would have happened to whoever might have been sat in the passenger seat. Suffice to say they would not have survived without a head.[:-]
so quite who i was "showing off to" ive no idea.
As I recall from your story at the time that would be your mate in the other car that you were racing with.[8|]

Oh and remember after writing off the 968 Sport, then coming out of Oulton Park only days/weeks later and spinning the Cabriolet and laughing about saying "I'm back on the horse" after almost hitting a tree.[8|]

Just my humble opinion but .. I think a bit of humility might be the key.
Over confidence and a lack of humility with regard to driving ability will one day result in killing somebody (and it may not be just yourself) especially if you have a tendency to practive on the public roads.


(PS. Because of certain past postings I have been asked by the Admin to keep copies of postings, should they suddenly go missing as they have done in the past, trolls tend to have a negative effect on otherwise helpful forums and PCGB are trying to get rid of this sort of thing.)
 
Hmm, where's the Popcorn Icon when you need it??

To digress. There is certainly a theory that you sometimes have to give up some speed early to gain it later and this is not difficult to understand. Now you would think to cite the currently debated corner at O.P. That you could measure exit speed and even terminal speed along the next straight section and this would settle the question. Yes?? Well maybe.

Situations like these always make me wonder. Because we are going around and around the same circuit I guess the bottom line is the overall laptime, but then this doesn't settle the issue of isolated corners. So lets imagine that Stu's line provided him with a faster corner exit speed and even a faster speed down the following straight, yet he did everything else exactly the same as Dave. For this hypothetical lets also assume they're in identical cars on the same day. Now if Stu's line was faster and we've got quantifiable figures to substantiate this, then would his lap time be faster? Of course you say, it has to be. There is no other possible answer.....or is there???

What if Stu has to brake earlier and scrub off a little more speed than Dave to complete his line successfully? Moreso, what if Dave went in deeper and took an earlier apex which in turn shortened the distance he's travelling? It may mean that at some point Stu's line gave him a slightly higher corner speed (mid to late), but Dave's line has allowed him a higher speed on the preceding straight and corner entry, plus he's gone on a shorter distance.

Ultimately I'm thinking out loud and suggesting that we tend to think of a corner and following straight section in isolation when comparing lines, but we tend to forget or overlook what has gone before this corner and what effect this has had on the overall laptime.

Here endeth the lesson....well you know what I mean. [:)]
 
OK chaps, I'm asking you to draw a line under this one getting anymore personal as we don't want to detract from what Baz has done with this engine and also an interesting discussion on cornering lines

Anymore name calling from any party and I'll lock the thread

Play nice [:)]
 

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