9912S or 997TTgen 2 ?

[rob.kellock]

ORIGINAL: dyllan

But if you find the 991 fun having had a Spyder for a fair while ,then that is very helpful
Thanks Rob

I really do.

The ability to put the roof up and down at 30mph proved very handy yesterday when blue skies turned to torrential downpour before I reached a layby!!

If you take it for what it is, a modern interpretation of the 911, the 991 is a stunning car.

 

[stokey]

Reading the thread with great interest, and have to say Rob mirrors my thoughts, I am also surprised nobody has brought
up the subject of ride quality and cabin noise levels, it was one of the main reasons I switched, prehaps I am getting old[8|]
but the 991 is in another league, a very nice place to be.
I can only add my comments,
Steering , not being a driving God I cannot say I can notice a lot of difference, prehaps its my car setup sports sus, lower than std, spacers etc
and I will say having tried a 2s the 4s seems to turn in better.
Handbrake , exactly Nick![:'(] a horrible thing but have never used it always leave it in park, a habit from driving manuals always leave in gear,
having had a Audi decide to take a ride without me, lol, yes it was on?[]
Stop start , sail , not a issue always off in sport mode anyway, great for long cruises up to 32mpg amazing!.
cabin storage, never something that has bothered me, love the larger boot.
Lack of power , again prehaps its the powerkit but 99% time its quick enough .and the sound with sports exhaust , gives me a thrill evertime[]

 

[Lancerlot]

Owned or driven them all. []

400 against 490 BHP (530 BHP for S) - it's gotta be 997 Turbo - no question! []

Regards,

Clive.

 

[SteveJC]

Although I don't have a 991 2s I do have the 991 4s and did have a 997 Turbo S up until April this year when I swapped it for the 4S, pluses and minuses, for and against which is the fastest which is the best.
Mine is a 4S, PDK, 430BHP power kit, Sport Chrono, PSE with standard brakes plus a few other bits that make no other difference than aesthetics at the end of the day.
What made me change the Turbo to a N/A, well it started when mine went in for a bit of warranty work and as all good dealers do they lend you something nice and on this particular day it was an out of the box standard 911 coupe with PSE and PDK. What a car that was, I just couldn't believe the difference from mine, the linear power delivery, how free the engine revved and the noise of the PSE when moving on, then it was driving at normal speeds on the motorway, what was this, being able to listen to the stereo and talk to the passenger without using raised voices, superb, that was the start.
I couldn't just buy a non S car and I wanted a 4S, just prior to this Stokey had took delivery of his power kitted White 4S and I said to him I would have brought that if I had seen it, so I started looking for a used one with the power kit, that was hard, nothing about, then a couple of cars came up neither with the power kit so I chose a 2 week old with 400 miles on the clock and had a power kit retro fitted.
Which is the faster car, the 997 Turbo, which is the best car? For me at the moment and at the end of the day that is all that counts it as to be the 991 4S. Now I haven't drove a 991 Turbo S and there's a very good reason for that but we are talking 997 Turbo against a 991 S, also that was my second 997 Turbo and I had decided I wanted a change and to have more drama from the higher revving engine and the exhaust noise and it is still fast, when it's singing above 5000 rpm it's just as addictive as the Turbo grunt.
Do I miss the Turbo? At times, that grunt when you push on that accelerator pedal is very addictive the way it pushes you back in the seat but the 4S at the moment is a far better package for me. Saying that, if you haven't owned a Turbo I think it's something you may regret if you don't scratch that itch as the saying goes.
Turbo is faster, 991 is fast enough, especially with the little bit extra thrown in.
Steering, to be honest it feels better to me in the 991
All I carry around with me in the cockpit or really in the door pocket is an I phone, wallet ,umbrella, garage door fob and a microfiber cloth and it all fits in the 991 just like the 997
Hand brake is a pain but to be fair I never use it with PDK, come to that it's very rare I use the handbrake in anything.
The engine stop default and coast function is something we are going to have to live with in newer cars at least it can be turned off or just put it in sport mode and it automatically turns it off.
There are a couple of real good benefits the 991 as over the 997
The road noise is so much better even with 20 inch wheels fitted
The PDK is much sweeter, the PSE and induction noise, well it's just brilliant (I do need to grow up) overall the 991S in sport mode performs really well and it is a far more nicer car to be in.
As for the Turbo S
The Turbo S will, I think depreciate less than the 991 S's especially if you're looking at something like an 11 plate.
The Turbo will cost a smidgen more to run
It is faster ( I keep saying that )
It would be no hardship for me to go back although I won't but I will probably have another Turbo at some point. But there again when my 991 was in they lent me a new Cayman S, bloody hell that was great fun, mine felt very lethargic when I got it back.
Not a lot of help I'm afraid but good luck with whatever you buy, just enjoy it to its potential.

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: Lancerlot

Owned or driven them all. []

400 against 490 BHP (530 BHP for S) - it's gotta be 997 Turbo - no question! []

Regards,

Clive.

I personally would never buy a non turbo charged car again - because of the toque - I really don't care about BHP figures as I don't tend to rev the nuts off my cars on public roads to get access to that power.

Only 1 out my last 5 cars has been normally aspirated (Audi S3 > 997 C2S Cab > 997 Turbo > Audi RS6 Avant > Cayenne DS) and it was by far the most boring to drive out of all of them! I had a loaner 991 C2S in guards red for a weekend when it first came out - and I barely drove it as it just didn't do it anything for me on the road []

 

[rob.kellock]

ORIGINAL: Alex L

I personally would never buy a non turbo charged car again - because of the toque - I really don't care about BHP figures as I don't tend to rev the nuts off my cars on public roads to get access to that power.

I understand that thought process.

Funnily enough, it is where the 991S excels - somewhat to my surprise. I thought it was going to be more "grown up" than my Cayman but it demands to be put into sports mode and really wakes up at higher rpm.

The 991 sometimes seems to get a somewhat lukewarm reception in some quarters - maybe because going to one from a 997 turbo is genuinely a bit boring - whereas the press have consistently raved about the 981 Cayman. Going to the 991 from the Cayman, I have been blown away by the breadth of its ability. My extended loan is sadly at an end as of this morning and I am back in the Cayman S tonight. I will be interested to see how it drives again as a back for back comparison.

 

[spyderman]

ORIGINAL: rob.kellock
Going to the 991 from the Cayman, I have been blown away by the breadth of its ability.

I can tell you're testing a 3.8 991 Rob - I say that because I had a 3.4 C4 991 for a few days and was quite underwhelmed by its performance. Haven't driven any 3.8 variant yet but I'm guessing I too would be blown away.

Chris.

 

[Alex L]

Yeh it really depends on what you are use to driving on a daily basis.

I find my 800Nm torque and 550 BHP pretty mundane these days You soon acclimatize and start hankering after that next step up. I am sure Lewis H's F1 cars have ruined him for 'sports' road cars. As I'm sure 'top fuel dragster' car drivers would find even F1 car acceleration rather tame...

But I am rather bored of high power these days - you just cant use it on public roads (the risks even if you don't hit anything are too great). These days I would take practicality (GT with back seats) good looks and noise over how fast I can go around a corner or in a straight line.

I've got old obviously...

 

[rob.kellock]

Yes, 991 S PDK with sports chrono, PASM etc.

Lovely car.

 

[Dylan1]

ORIGINAL: Alex L

Yeh it really depends on what you are use to driving on a daily basis.

I find my 800Nm torque and 550 BHP pretty mundane these days You soon acclimatize and start hankering after that next step up. I am sure Lewis H's F1 cars have ruined him for 'sports' road cars. As I'm sure 'top fuel dragster' car drivers would find even F1 car acceleration rather tame...

But I am rather bored of high power these days - you just cant use it on public roads (the risks even if you don't hit anything are too great). These days I would take practicality (GT with back seats) good looks and noise over how fast I can go around a corner or in a straight line.

I've got old obviously...

That was my thinking really Alex
Though I am a tad confused when you say you would not buy a non turbo again and then say you would prefer gt rather than just power?

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: dyllan

ORIGINAL: Alex L

Yeh it really depends on what you are use to driving on a daily basis.

I find my 800Nm torque and 550 BHP pretty mundane these days You soon acclimatize and start hankering after that next step up. I am sure Lewis H's F1 cars have ruined him for 'sports' road cars. As I'm sure 'top fuel dragster' car drivers would find even F1 car acceleration rather tame...

But I am rather bored of high power these days - you just cant use it on public roads (the risks even if you don't hit anything are too great). These days I would take practicality (GT with back seats) good looks and noise over how fast I can go around a corner or in a straight line.

I've got old obviously...

That was my thinking really Alex
Though I am a tad confused when you say you would not buy a non turbo again and then say you would prefer gt rather than just power?

My ideal car is something that can drive 2+1 comfortably across Europe (hence the GT), do the Swiss passes in rain (4WD) and on German autobahn on the way back blitz anything that comes up behind - all without having to rev the hell out of the gears ie. max thrust at 2000 rpm as required. It's the turbo convenience of having power whatever gear you are in at whatever revs. 3rd gear is really all you ever need in a turbo!

The 911 Turbo is a swiss-army-knife of a car. Only negatives are it is slightly over weight, rather ugly, muted exhaust, and new 991 TTS prices are just taking the mick (especially with all those plastic bits on the car). There's was good reason why after years of Gary leading Porsche club 997 event runs in his old 997 Turbo, that the vast majority of followers have changed subsequently from Carreras to Turbos just to keep up with him!

 

[pwebb]

Well Dylan, as I suspected, Lowndes and Steve JC popped out of the woodwork and have given you the owner's perspective. Interesting observations from everyone though, and a thread referring back to if anyone is looking at these alternatives.

 

[lowndes]

ORIGINAL: Alex L

My ideal car is something that can drive 2+1 comfortably across Europe (hence the GT), do the Swiss passes in rain (4WD) and on German autobahn on the way back blitz anything that comes up behind - all without having to rev the hell out of the gears ie. max thrust at 2000 rpm as required. It's the turbo convenience of having power whatever gear you are in at whatever revs. 3rd gear is really all you ever need in a turbo!

The 911 Turbo is a swiss-army-knife of a car. Only negatives are it is slightly over weight, rather ugly, muted exhaust, and new 991 TTS prices are just taking the mick (especially with all those plastic bits on the car). There's was good reason why after years of Gary leading Porsche club 997 event runs in his old 997 Turbo, that the vast majority of followers have changed subsequently from Carreras to Turbos just to keep up with him!

Alex I agree that a 997turbo has more torque and tractability than a 991C2S. And that is quite a big point. OK a very big point.

Nevertheless despite being outgunned in the power stakes, the all round 991 package offers a significant riposte to all that grunt, to the extent that some of those of us who have owned them (but by no means everyone of course) would actually prefer the 991n/a to 997T. For me the 991C2S was one of the very best Porsches I have owned.

And not wishing to stray too far OT, but in defence of 991TS pricing you get a lot of engineering for your £140K

 

[Dylan1]

As Peter says ,some really insightful -and very helpful comments gents- many thanks -
I guess I really need a turbo at some point !!!
Whether I do that now with a 997 TT-can't stretch to 991TS at the moment- or get a 2S now and upgrade in 2-3 yrs is probably the way I am thinking ,but if the 997TT blows me away on test drive .....!

 

[pwebb]

ORIGINAL: Alex L

My ideal car is something that can drive 2+1 comfortably across Europe (hence the GT), do the Swiss passes in rain (4WD) and on German autobahn on the way back blitz anything that comes up behind - all without having to rev the hell out of the gears ie. max thrust at 2000 rpm as required. It's the turbo convenience of having power whatever gear you are in at whatever revs. 3rd gear is really all you ever need in a turbo!

So presumably you have this on order Alex []

http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/panamera/panamera-turbo-s/

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: pwebb

ORIGINAL: Alex L

My ideal car is something that can drive 2+1 comfortably across Europe (hence the GT), do the Swiss passes in rain (4WD) and on German autobahn on the way back blitz anything that comes up behind - all without having to rev the hell out of the gears ie. max thrust at 2000 rpm as required. It's the turbo convenience of having power whatever gear you are in at whatever revs. 3rd gear is really all you ever need in a turbo!

So presumably you have this on order Alex []

http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/panamera/panamera-turbo-s/

No thanks Peter - too ugly, too long, too expensive for a family car [:'(]

 

[flat6]

I guess preferences and perceptions have a lot to do with it.
It's interesting that those who like the 'S' have the opinion that a turbo is no faster in typical scenarios. Those who prefer the turbo have the opinion that it is much faster.

There'll also be related decision criteria such as new vs used on a budget and old tech vs new tech on a budget. If the budget puts used 997 turbo up against a new(er) 991S then if you opt for the newer car for its attributes, naturally you'll start to discount the attributes of the other car to conclude your own personal decision.

It's all relative and the S is very fast compared to lesser powered cars. The 991 has a higher level of refined ride quality etc etc and that is a plus point and will be of more value to some than outright performance. Then you can say to yourself that it fast enough for your use etc etc and no-one can argue with that.

For me the difference with 680Nm of torque available from as low as 1950 RPM vs 440Nm available at 5600 RPM is massive and I don't mean on-paper statistics but how it drives. 0 to 60mph figures aren't that relevant as who is going to try to match those figures in general use. It's a very short distance and a very short time frame. You don't have to be trying to go flat out to enjoy the difference between a turbo and an S. I even find the turbo in normal mode quite docile and switch straight to sport mode which builds the boost pressure in what feels like instantaneously.

I too would never have another NA 911 and I agree that third gear is all you need but that's just my personal preference.

I did have similar thoughts a couple of years ago

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=714265

Enjoy the hunt and the decision making dyllan[]

 

[tscaptain]

991S

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msELZwMnoFo

997 Gen 2 Turbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB5c39PZFQ4

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: flat6
For me the difference with 680Nm of torque available from as low as 1950 RPM vs 440Nm available at 5600 RPM is massive and I don't mean on-paper statistics but how it drives.

BINGO

 

[lowndes]

Crikey Alan I don't remember it being like that when I was last at Watergate beach on a family holiday circa 1962. []

Now an observation/question for you torquemeisters. Out on the open road I rarely see more than 0.6bar and even that only fleetingly. So is the additional torque over that available N/A directly proportional to boost pressure, is it broadly linear, and what is the base to which the additional torque is added? Take for example my 0.6bar can someone tell me roughly what the delivered torque would be at that boost assuming it to fall within the optimum rpm range. I ask partly because I wonder if some of the stated turbo torque figures are largely unachievable, but also because I would quite like to know how it works anyway.