Cayman 718 GPF Failure

[Motorhead]

Hopefully your efforts have grabbed the attention of Porsche UK and beyond Dave, but my feeling is that it’s unlikely that we’ll get an acknowledgement of the problem from them for various reasons - legal, embarrassment at a technical cock-up maybe?

More likely that [under Stuttgart’s direction?] things will be done quietly at dealerships if an owner presents a car with an engine control fault message, and the car will be handed back to the owner with an “All fixed sir” message. I suspect that they’ll update the DPS for starters to see if that fixes the problem and if not replace the GPF. It’s a pity that the dealers don’t have the necessary equipment to check the AOS too, although they could of course choose to fit the latest version while the car’s with them to bring the affected cars up to 2020 spec.

Just my tuppence worth of course.

Jeff

 

[Oldbiddy]

Hopefully your efforts have grabbed the attention of Porsche UK and beyond Dave, but my feeling is that it’s unlikely that we’ll get an acknowledgement of the problem from them for various reasons - legal, embarrassment at a technical cock-up maybe?

More likely that [under Stuttgart’s direction?] things will be done quietly at dealerships if an owner presents a car with an engine control fault message, and the car will be handed back to the owner with an “All fixed sir” message. I suspect that they’ll update the DPS for starters to see if that fixes the problem and if not replace the GPF. It’s a pity that the dealers don’t have the necessary equipment to check the AOS too, although they could of course choose to fit the latest version while the car’s with them to bring the affected cars up to 2020 spec.

Just my tuppence worth of course.

Jeff

I agree with you.

This cannot be just a UK issue and I suspect Stuttgart is the invisible hand at work here. I think that if presented with sufficient evidence that a problem genuinely exists (of which they are probably well aware already) to demonstrate that owners are "on to them" then they run significant reputational risk if they fail to act.

Personally I think this needs to be escalated to Germany through Porsche UK and the Club should press for that. I don't think Porsche UK will take any unilateral action and we should not expect any admissions from either the UK or Germany either. However if we continue to gather more overwhelming evidence Germany may be more amenable to initiating some sort of remedial action short of a recall.

So Dave I 100% applaud the work already done on this. In the absence of this individual owners would not have stood a chance of Porsche doing anything about this. So aa big Thank You from me. I have an 2020 model year so I seem to have avoided this issue by the skin of my teeth - touch wood!

 

[JohnCRS]

Thanks for the excellent work Dave, and the considerable time and effort involved in this. Others may not be aware that Dave has a 100% record of being able to help those faced with the problem avoid the very large bills, But he can only continue to do this if people come forward. This is being done on a case by case basis.

Andy_G, Dave and I are all trying to find a way to engage with Porsche GB technical department on this. It does seem that our Club's relationship with Porsche is largely a marketing one, so we have to push through that to get to the people we need to talk to. The Board is helping with this.

However, I agree with the thoughts expressed above. Porsche have no obligation to engage with us. Porsche may simply say 'What's all the fuss about? You have got a handfull of members who are not being treated correctly. Lets look at these cases individually.' And for reasons stated in posts above, Porsche may not want to explain or acknowledge any fault in their engineering, systems and processes. (This approach has served them well in the past. PDK gearboxes etc.) Our principal objective is to get Porsche to acknowledge that 'blocked' GPF's are not caused by owners, that the true cause is known and that it will be fixed under warranty. No big bills! If we can get that far the likely outcome is a bulletin to OPC's with instructions on how to proceed in the situation. I have every confidence in them being able to find an effective solution once they acknowledge they have to deal with it. That will be a good result

It really would be nice to resolve all of the queries we have though, so we will keep trying to engage..

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Guys & Girls



Without Prejudice



Just had a phone call from Mark today concerning his oil / ash % reading on his Cayman 718 2019

He was the first Porsche club member to have his faulty GPF replaced, and the car went out with an Oil / Ash reading of 0.00 %, and the in filter temperature was 414.98 degrees C, and the upstream temp 25.60 was degrees C .The differential pressure sensor was reading 2.65 hPa.

I mentioned these figures above on my last post.

His readings now after only 3,802 miles, are as follows

K231 Oil / Ash measured 39.61 %

T255 Exhaust gas temperature in filter calculated 501.00 degrees C

T251 Exhaust gas temperature upstream calculated 30.54 degrees C

K252 Differential pressure sensor value 2.76 hPa

His Exhaust Catalytic Convertor temperature was 586.85 degrees C.

He recently purchased a diagnostic tool that could give him these figures that the Porsche technicians look at, which is very helpful.

Bearing in mind that we may find it hard getting this data from now on, due to a Porsche internal memo saying, not any more.

When he connected his diagnostic tool, and switched on the ignition, all the dash lights lit up, including the EML light.

What didn’t light up was the Particulate Filter Warning light, that should alert the driver that his soot content in the exhaust needs a driver regeneration, as detailed in the handbook.

You would think that the particulate warning light has the same importance as the EML light. These warning lights are there to alert us to an issue in the engine management system before it gets worse and needs urgent driver intervention.

So, on all the cars we have looked at and investigated, no driver has ever seen this warning light, they only saw the EML light with the permitted to drive warning displayed, and a DTC P242F ash load to high.

Just a thought, when these GPF filters have been returned to the manufacturer who made them, are they finding these filters are indeed faulty, as we have asked the dealers to check for back pressure before removing them many times.

So we can safely say the light was not working on all the cars we have checked.

Moving forwards, if any driver of a Cayman and Boxster 718 2019 with the DTC P242F (ash load to high) showing in the engine management system, they should speak to a Porsche Dealer.

The dealer needs to set up a case with Porsche, and if the Particulate warning light cannot be seen, either in the diagnostic system or on the dashboard. Then this surely confirms that the vehicle is not fit for purpose, due to a possible manufacturing defect in the emission control system.

The repair claim could then be covered by Porsche, because it may be a manufacturing defect, that should be covered by the manufacturer.

Looking at the Porsche 2019 warranty cover on cars sold in Canada and parts of America on the internet, look what I found.

They have something called Federal Emission Design and Defects Warranty

This warranty is in addition to the Porsche New Car Limited Warranty, and covers the vehicle for 8 years 80,000 miles.

It covers the Catalytic Convertor, and the emission control diagnostic system.

This should cover our cars, should it not.



Dave

Cyclemotor1958

 

[Paul-718gts]

Hi Guys & Girls



Without Prejudice



Just had a phone call from Mark today concerning his oil / ash % reading on his Cayman 718 2019

He was the first Porsche club member to have his faulty GPF replaced, and the car went out with an Oil / Ash reading of 0.00 %, and the in filter temperature was 414.98 degrees C, and the upstream temp 25.60 was degrees C .The differential pressure sensor was reading 2.65 hPa.

I mentioned these figures above on my last post.

His readings now after only 3,802 miles, are as follows

K231 Oil / Ash measured 39.61 %

T255 Exhaust gas temperature in filter calculated 501.00 degrees C

T251 Exhaust gas temperature upstream calculated 30.54 degrees C

K252 Differential pressure sensor value 2.76 hPa

His Exhaust Catalytic Convertor temperature was 586.85 degrees C.

He recently purchased a diagnostic tool that could give him these figures that the Porsche technicians look at, which is very helpful.

Bearing in mind that we may find it hard getting this data from now on, due to a Porsche internal memo saying, not any more.

When he connected his diagnostic tool, and switched on the ignition, all the dash lights lit up, including the EML light.

What didn’t light up was the Particulate Filter Warning light, that should alert the driver that his soot content in the exhaust needs a driver regeneration, as detailed in the handbook.

You would think that the particulate warning light has the same importance as the EML light. These warning lights are there to alert us to an issue in the engine management system before it gets worse and needs urgent driver intervention.

So, on all the cars we have looked at and investigated, no driver has ever seen this warning light, they only saw the EML light with the permitted to drive warning displayed, and a DTC P242F ash load to high.

Just a thought, when these GPF filters have been returned to the manufacturer who made them, are they finding these filters are indeed faulty, as we have asked the dealers to check for back pressure before removing them many times.

So we can safely say the light was not working on all the cars we have checked.

Moving forwards, if any driver of a Cayman and Boxster 718 2019 with the DTC P242F (ash load to high) showing in the engine management system, they should speak to a Porsche Dealer.

The dealer needs to set up a case with Porsche, and if the Particulate warning light cannot be seen, either in the diagnostic system or on the dashboard. Then this surely confirms that the vehicle is not fit for purpose, due to a possible manufacturing defect in the emission control system.

The repair claim could then be covered by Porsche, because it may be a manufacturing defect, that should be covered by the manufacturer.

Looking at the Porsche 2019 warranty cover on cars sold in Canada and parts of America on the internet, look what I found.

They have something called Federal Emission Design and Defects Warranty

This warranty is in addition to the Porsche New Car Limited Warranty, and covers the vehicle for 8 years 80,000 miles.

It covers the Catalytic Convertor, and the emission control diagnostic system.

This should cover our cars, should it not.



Dave

Cyclemotor1958

Hi Dave,
Maybe your last point regarding the increased level of warranty being provided in America and Canada could be a starting point that both the Owners Club and Porsche GB should raise with Porsche Germany.

Is this standard across all new GPF cars in the USA or introduced specifically for a reason related to the 718 model ?

 

[Wrightrubber]

Hi all
I sent a letter to Porsche Germany to complain that the GPF not being covered under the extended warranty because they class it as a wear and tear part was an 'unfair term' because it is not a serviceable component. They just sent the letter to Porsche GB to deal with, basically they are not interested.
I have attached Porsche GB response, they say that the GPF is listed on the exhaustive wear and tear list for the extended warranty.... not on my copy of the warranty exclusions, I have asked them to send me a copy of the section that details the GPF exclusion.
Regardless there is NO light on the dash to tell the driver it needs a regeneration, let them explain that to the Ombudsman

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Thanks Mark and Paul for your support.

Porsche need to listen to their customers and support them, after all these cars are expensive and they need to help restore confidence and faith in their vehicles.

 

[Paul-718gts]

Hi all
I sent a letter to Porsche Germany to complain that the GPF not being covered under the extended warranty because they class it as a wear and tear part was an 'unfair term' because it is not a serviceable component. They just sent the letter to Porsche GB to deal with, basically they are not interested.
I have attached Porsche GB response, they say that the GPF is listed on the exhaustive wear and tear list for the extended warranty.... not on my copy of the warranty exclusions, I have asked them to send me a copy of the section that details the GPF exclusion.
Regardless there is NO light on the dash to tell the driver it needs a regeneration, let them explain that to the Ombudsman

Based on the written response from Porsche GB regarding the warranty claims, a good starting point for when the owners club finally engage with them would be to ask the following questions -

-What criteria is used by the Porsche centre to diagnosis/define "Wear and Tear" ?
-What determines a Manufacturing Defect ?

Based on both my experience and knowledge of this issue a true root course has never been established as yet, and any investigation actions are limited so the answers to both the above points would hopefully give us the insight we all need.

 

[Wrightrubber]

The early 718 (2016-2018) didn't have a GPF fitted, could it be that when they fitted the GPF to 2019 cars they were still using the same dash as the 2016-2018 models hence there was no filter light as it wasn't required on the earlier cars????

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Mark,

Enclose a photo of your dashboard, unfortunately your video would not send.

Has we can all see, we are missing the amber particulate filter warning light.

You would expect to see this warning light when you turn on the ignition, all the other lights come on including the EML light.

Remember this light is mentioned in the drivers manual, with a very detailed instruction on what to do if it comes on.

We have offered a reward to anyone who can supply a photo of our missing warning light.

I have researched other manufacturers with a GPF fitted and they all have the amber warning light on the dashboard.

Dave

 

[Peter_Bull]

Perhaps it is after all a manufacturing fault in that the warning light fails to come on and that in turn will affect the drivers inability to carry out the necessary and remedial instructions as per the manual.

 

[JohnCRS]

Amongst all the confusion there is a body of evidence building up to the effect that the blocked GPF could be a mis-diagnosis. When the CEL comes on there is no other indication that the GPF is faulty - the car runs OK. Given the values on some of the reports it is quite likely that the calculations could simply be wrong, and in some cases replacing such as the Differential Pressure sensor could lead to a different solution.

Nick Taylor will bring this matter to the attention of Porsche GB, with the objective of clarifying what is going on.

 

[Motorhead]

The early 718 (2016-2018) didn't have a GPF fitted, could it be that when they fitted the GPF to 2019 cars they were still using the same dash as the 2016-2018 models hence there was no filter light as it wasn't required on the earlier cars????

Mark,

Maybe this represents a way in for you. Why not approach your dealer and challenge them to show you in person that the GPF light illuminates when you turn-on the ignition, just like all the other warning lights? If it doesn’t … QED! Then it’s over to them to explain the anomaly.

Even if it’s not illuminated, can you actually detect the presence of the warning light in the display?

Jeff

 

[Wrightrubber]

Hi Jeff
I have pushed it back to Reading to prove to me there is a filter light and also to show me the section in the extended warranty where the GPF is listed in the exhaustive list of wear and tear components. I called them on Thursday as I hadn't heard back from them and they informed me they had pushed it back to technical for the filter light and warranty for the wear and tear. I await their reply. My relationship with my local OPC is getting a little fractious, they have been arrogant, ill informed and very dismissive.

Regards
Mark

 

[Paul-718gts]

Amongst all the confusion there is a body of evidence building up to the effect that the blocked GPF could be a mis-diagnosis. When the CEL comes on there is no other indication that the GPF is faulty - the car runs OK. Given the values on some of the reports it is quite likely that the calculations could simply be wrong, and in some cases replacing such as the Differential Pressure sensor could lead to a different solution.

Nick Taylor will bring this matter to the attention of Porsche GB, with the objective of clarifying what is going on.

Hi John,
Do we have any time lines on the meeting with both Nick Taylor and Porsche GB.

Regards

Paul

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi John,

Without Prejudice

How's it going with Porsche Club, we are getting slightly frustrated at the lack of progress with Porsche GB.
I have been on this issue for nearly a year, and presented enough evidence to confirm we have a problem on all the cars we have dealt with.

We are used to the wait when dealing with Porsche and their dealers, and quite frankly this situation is ridiculous.

We have proven that on all the cars we have dealt with, none of them have a working emission particulate warning light. That should come on when the soot load is high.
Again it's function is fully detailed in the drivers Manual.

We have asked all the dealers concerned, why hasn't the light come on, to date, the only answer we get, is it should come on.

Well it didn’t come on, and the warning light symbol is not on the dashboard when you turn on the ignition when all the other warning lights are displayed.

Customers ask the same question to Customer Care, they speak to Porsche technical, they say it should come on.

All they need to do is go to a 2019 car and turn on the ignition.

The diagnostic information we are seeing from the Val reports we have seen, suggest that things are not as they should be.

We have asked all the dealers how the oil / ash measured value is calculated, still waiting.

We have on record 3 cars that have had new GPF filters fitted, and the dealers found it difficult to reset the oil / ash measured value to 0.00%.

Again we have asked the dealers how did they finally reset the value, still waiting.

We are now in a situation that the dealers are not allowing any diagnostic information to go out, a memo from Porsche, why not.

I spoke with independent Porsche Specialist today, who had to buy back a vehicle with this GPF fault.

If this was happening in Canada, or the States, it wouldn't be such a task to get the dealers to cover the repair 100%.

Has the cars over there have a 8 year, 80,000 mile Emission Design and Defects Warranty.

So Porsche Club, we need answers to these specific questions, starting with the most important question how could these cars be sold with an emission system warning light that on all our cars doesn't work, and continues not to work.

And is continuing not to work correctly even with a new GPF fitted by the dealers.

David

 

[Oldbiddy]

We have proven that on all the cars we have dealt with, none of them have a working emission particulate warning light. That should come on when the soot load is high.
Again it's function is fully detailed in the drivers Manual.

We have asked all the dealers concerned, why hasn't the light come on, to date, the only answer we get, is it should come on.

Well it didn’t come on, and the warning light symbol is not on the dashboard when you turn on the ignition when all the other warning lights are displayed.

Customers ask the same question to Customer Care, they speak to Porsche technical, they say it should come on.

All they need to do is go to a 2019 car and turn on the ignition.

Are you sure about this?

I have a late 2020 Cayman and no particulate warning light appears when the ignition is turned on. What I do get is the usual Check Engine Light (CEL) displayed in the Rev Counter area which then goes out when the engine starts.

If I am reading my Manual correctly the CEL should illuminate if the filter is blocked AND a specific warning light should accompany it but that should appear in the Multi Function Display rather than the Rev Counter area. The latter is not normally displayed when the ignition is turned on.

The manual is quite confusing so maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation.

But I 100% agree with the remainder of your post.

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Alan

Without Prejudice

The particulate amber warning light should come on when the soot loading is sufficient to warrant a driver regeneration.

Unfortunately we have never seen this light working, on all the cars we have tested, and it's not showing on the dashboard when you turn on the ignition.

I have researched lots of other manufacturers with GPF fitted and they have a working amber particulate warning light.

This light is has important as the EML light, to warn the driver of a possible situation that could result in a possible breakdown or a visit to the garage.

Porsche Dealers say that the soot warning light should come on at level 4
Which is a readings of between 64%-85%
Level 5 is 86%-99% and level 6 is 100%.
At 100% it's to late the EML light comes on.
But this just happens to be the ash loading in reality.

They cannot not do a regeneration at level 5 has you cannot regenerate ash.

There seems to be confusion over soot and ash values.

You carry out regenerations to clear soot, that then produces very small amounts of ash to build up in the filter over time.

These filters should not have a problem with ash at these mileages.

I would suggest to speak to your dealer and get them to show you your warning light working.

They could also do a quick check on your GPF and let you have a look at it's readings.

And also ask them what would be the DTC code, if this soot filter warning light came on.

I have tried to find this out but they will not speak to me.

I had confirmation last week from a specialist Dealer with a 2020 Cayman, he sent me a picture of his dash, showing no warning light present.

I wasn't going to say anything yet, but you have asked the question.

Enclose copy of the drivers manual, which adds to the confusion.

Please keep in touch

Dave

 

[andrew.creese]

Hi Dave
As a potential 718 buyer I've been following this with growing anxiety. Could you tell me which year models are affected? Is it just MY2019? Are 2016-18 models unaffected by this problem? Many thanks for all your work on this.
Andrew

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Andrew
Pre 2019 cars do not have a GPF fitted, and we have just been working on model year 2019 cars this last year.
Regards
Dave