Im going to hold onto my GT4 ... for the Price of circa £85k there isn't another car out their with the balance and brand provenance. The GT4 is arguably one of the best cars Porsche have ever made and will go down in the annals of motoring history as such. I personally think next GT4 will be Turbo charged adding to my desire to keep my car and watch as values increase £10k over night, if the new GT4 is 4.0L then it will be just under £100k with options still making the Gen1 a great car ... Win/Win
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Cayman GT4: Where are we up 2 now? Déjà vu Edition
- Thread starter ralphmusic
- Start date
I am guessing a price 12% higher than the Gen 1 based entirely on the GT3 991.1 to .2 pricing which was accompanied by some extra standard equipment.
My 4T v F6 views for what they are worth were expressed earlier.
My 4T v F6 views for what they are worth were expressed earlier.
CarreraGTS said:I personally think next GT4 will be Turbo charged adding to my desire to keep my car and watch as values increase £10k over night, if the new GT4 is 4.0L then it will be just under £100k with options still making the Gen1 a great car ... Win/Win
We're all entitled to our own opinions of course Andrew, but I think that's just wishful thinking on your part.
When the nasp 4.0L Gen2 GT4 arrives on our shores I would expect prices of the Gen1 cars to start heading downwards. Who's going to pay circa £85k for a used Gen1 car when the list price of a new car is probably going to be about £73k?
Jeff
I'm with 'Carrera GTS' on this. His thinking is exactly, to the letter, what I believe/feel too. If we are both wrong - so be it.
There will be two distinct camps not this - smug OR exponentially not smug. I'm likely never ever to log on here again if I am in the latter camp! LOL
There will be two distinct camps not this - smug OR exponentially not smug. I'm likely never ever to log on here again if I am in the latter camp! LOL
Jeff
I would disagree with that point on 4 Fronts ..
1) The proposed 4.0L GT4 will be circa £95k with options
2) The new GT4 will be limited allocation and therefore around £130k for those wishing to Flip or buy second hand
3) 996 GT3 are £80k and 997 Gen1 GT3 are £90k and the Gen1 GT4 is a different class to those two GT cars
4) Cayman GTS are circa £60k
So there is no way unless a total GT market crash that Gen1 GT4's will be worth less than they are at the moment ...
Andrew
I would disagree with that point on 4 Fronts ..
1) The proposed 4.0L GT4 will be circa £95k with options
2) The new GT4 will be limited allocation and therefore around £130k for those wishing to Flip or buy second hand
3) 996 GT3 are £80k and 997 Gen1 GT3 are £90k and the Gen1 GT4 is a different class to those two GT cars
4) Cayman GTS are circa £60k
So there is no way unless a total GT market crash that Gen1 GT4's will be worth less than they are at the moment ...
Andrew
In my opinion:
Point (1) - no-one knows what the price will be but based on the 991.1 GT3 around 12% should be expected which would put the base car at £73k. So around £85k with options?
Regarding point (3) they are 911 GT3s - very different demand and pricing. No way is a GT4 comparable to a GT3 in either demand or status in the Porsche world. A flipped 718 GT4 will not be £130k - that's 991.1 GT3 money. Not a chance that will happen.
The 981 GT4 is a good car, especially if you want something 'proper' to do track days with, but it's not the Holy Grail.
Point (1) - no-one knows what the price will be but based on the 991.1 GT3 around 12% should be expected which would put the base car at £73k. So around £85k with options?
Regarding point (3) they are 911 GT3s - very different demand and pricing. No way is a GT4 comparable to a GT3 in either demand or status in the Porsche world. A flipped 718 GT4 will not be £130k - that's 991.1 GT3 money. Not a chance that will happen.
The 981 GT4 is a good car, especially if you want something 'proper' to do track days with, but it's not the Holy Grail.
Totally disagree ... GT4 is a GT car and mid engined ... its pricing is relative to its GT3 stable mate; cheaper but relative ... There is no way in a million years Porsche GT department can put a 4.0 Litre Racing Block in a Cayman for £73k ... the engine alone is £30k. So, if indeed they go 4.0L the car will be starting in the £80's at the minimum.
Regarding "status" that is crazy to say that they are not Comparable in the Porsche World ... they are both GT cars ... one with a better engine and one with a better chassis and balance just like the 918 and Carrera Gt the only two other Porsche mid engined cars ...
I am by no means a GT4 snob, quite the contrary i preferred my 911 GTS.
If Porsche build a 4.0L GT4 it will be a way better car than any GT3 due to its mid engine and chassis - which is why i go back to my first point and believe Gen2 GT4 will be Turbo Charged either 6 or 4 but Turbo charged to keep a design brief separation to the Gt3 ...
Oh and by the way - who has seen the new Roadster from Tesla ... 0 to 60 in 1.9 seconds ... Welcome to the Future guys
Regarding "status" that is crazy to say that they are not Comparable in the Porsche World ... they are both GT cars ... one with a better engine and one with a better chassis and balance just like the 918 and Carrera Gt the only two other Porsche mid engined cars ...
I am by no means a GT4 snob, quite the contrary i preferred my 911 GTS.
If Porsche build a 4.0L GT4 it will be a way better car than any GT3 due to its mid engine and chassis - which is why i go back to my first point and believe Gen2 GT4 will be Turbo Charged either 6 or 4 but Turbo charged to keep a design brief separation to the Gt3 ...
Oh and by the way - who has seen the new Roadster from Tesla ... 0 to 60 in 1.9 seconds ... Welcome to the Future guys
Brian_Innes
Member
You are talking sense imo Carrera GTS. I am in complete agreement with your comments.
Brian
Brian
It won't get the £30k GT3 engine, it'll get a much cheaper version with more basic parts to keep the price down and maintain the GT4's place in the pecking order/hierarchy. That's how Porsche do things. A 4.0 version of the current 3.8 is what the rumour mill says, and that won't be a £30k engine even though it's a 4.0.
They're not comparable in status to most people - the 911 has the history and image that the Cayman hasn't. The GT4 is what it is - an entry level GT product based on a regular Cayman platform that was only lightly breathed on by the GT department (mainly bolting in the GT3 front suspension and adding GT3 brakes all round, plus a bit of bodywork).
I much prefer the Cayman over the 911 too and as I said the 981 GT4 is a great car, but it's no 911 GT3.
They're not comparable in status to most people - the 911 has the history and image that the Cayman hasn't. The GT4 is what it is - an entry level GT product based on a regular Cayman platform that was only lightly breathed on by the GT department (mainly bolting in the GT3 front suspension and adding GT3 brakes all round, plus a bit of bodywork).
I much prefer the Cayman over the 911 too and as I said the 981 GT4 is a great car, but it's no 911 GT3.
Andrew,
If you care to check, David is reiterating what we've been saying on here for some time regarding the 4.0L engine - most probably it'll just be a stroked version of the 3.8L in your car without the fancy internals, bespoke cylinder heads and dry sump oil system of the GT3 engine.
As for the GT3 having a "Racing Block", Ralph has pointed out that the 991.1 (i.e. 981.1 GT4) and GT3 3.8L crankcases are virtually the same except for GT3-specific machining. I doubt that there's much difference, if any, between the 3.8L and the current 4.0L blocks given that the increased capacity is obtained using a longer throw crankshaft.
Anyway, it's all speculation until someone posts a video of the new car so that we can assess whether or not it still has the n/a flat-6 powerplant - after which speculation will move on to transmissions and gearing..!
I think it's a no-brainer that post-718/982 we'll be looking at a turbo GT4, maybe with some form of mild hybridisation too which could well rule out a manual transmission.
Jeff
If you care to check, David is reiterating what we've been saying on here for some time regarding the 4.0L engine - most probably it'll just be a stroked version of the 3.8L in your car without the fancy internals, bespoke cylinder heads and dry sump oil system of the GT3 engine.
As for the GT3 having a "Racing Block", Ralph has pointed out that the 991.1 (i.e. 981.1 GT4) and GT3 3.8L crankcases are virtually the same except for GT3-specific machining. I doubt that there's much difference, if any, between the 3.8L and the current 4.0L blocks given that the increased capacity is obtained using a longer throw crankshaft.
Anyway, it's all speculation until someone posts a video of the new car so that we can assess whether or not it still has the n/a flat-6 powerplant - after which speculation will move on to transmissions and gearing..!
I think it's a no-brainer that post-718/982 we'll be looking at a turbo GT4, maybe with some form of mild hybridisation too which could well rule out a manual transmission.
Jeff
Another twist...
https://rennlist.com/foru...039060-no-new-gt4.html
which is consistent with what John Tecce said recently re the rennwagen version, although why all the "spy" shots recently?
https://rennlist.com/foru...039060-no-new-gt4.html
which is consistent with what John Tecce said recently re the rennwagen version, although why all the "spy" shots recently?
Playing Porsche product planner for a day... what would you do about the GT4 Clubsport’s competitiveness given the new Mercedes and Audi entrants into the class?
Mercedes have introduced the AMG GT road car, a sportier version in the GTR, and the race version AMG GT4. The GT has 557hp, 680Nm and in the UK costs £98k. The GTR has 585hp, 700Nm, active aero and costs £144k. These are road cars with DCT gearboxes and perhaps in model lineup terms analogous respectively, to the Cayman GT4 and a “GT4RS”. The Mercedes AMG GT4 race car has 510hp, 600Nm, sequential gearbox, double wishbone suspension front and rear, 6 speed sequential gearbox, carbon reinforced plastic body panels, and costs £198k. We all thought (well most did) that the Cayman GT4 Clubsport was rather under whelming as a race car but as often is the case with Porsche it has been quite successful in 2017. However Mercedes has rather upped the GT4 race car game, as have Audi and McLaren. Being in charge of Porsche’s GT and race car program and given homologation requirements, I would start with the race car, then work back to road car, so what to do about improving Porsche’s GT4 race car? Engine - needs more power but mainly torque - I’d go for a turbo but I don’t think a 4 pot would really be the go-to configuration Platform - Cayman currently is not big enough at the rear to have turbos and 6 cylinders nor a more sophisticated suspension set-up. Also the current T4 718 seems to have engine heat management issues based on comments in the SportAuto Supertest Non-issues: weight - Mercedes start with bloated road cars with their AMG GT/GTR so I don’t see fancy body materials as a key issue for a new Porsche GT4 race car, brakes - Clubsport uses existing GT race ready components so not really an issue aero - I would think this is more of a development focus rather than a fundamental issue gearbox - I don’t see this as an issue, manual and PDK proven option for road use, SADEV's or ANO's sequential for race cars With the objective of being really competitive in GT4, I’d revise the model hierarchy and separate road and GT, bite the 911/mid-engine platform pricing performance bullet and produce: GT4 road/track day car much as as 981 but with enlarged 991.1 4.0L engine, PDK and manual - simple development at £71k list GT4RS track day/road car with 991.2 GT3 engine, aero, PDK-S, fix rear suspension £110k list GT4 Clubsport race car version of RS with sequential gearbox, aero+ and stripped out a la 981 Clubsport £150k list The 991.2 GT3 engine with simplified valve train is used in Porsche race cars and must be the logical choice as it will fit in the Cayman shell and presumably cooling would not be an issue. Also presumably, the simplified valve train would be acceptable for homologation as it would be for reliability reasons and produce less power. I think this scenario fits all the various stories of what is/may be going on and would allow Porsche a reasonable chance of having some success in GT4 before a change to a completely new chassis platform in 2020/1 for all levels of GT motorsport. If the objective is not to compromise 911 GT cars and forgo international competitiveness, I'd just repeat the 981 formula of GT4 and a Clubsport version and wait for next platform iteration. What would you do and why? Mercedes GT4 hierarchy here Base https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/pass...es.module.html GTR http://tools.mercedes-benz.co.uk/current/passenger-cars/e-brochures/mercedes-amg-gtr.pdf?owda=amg+gt+coupé+r GT4 https://www.mercedes-amg.com/custome..._Online_EN.pdf
Mercedes have introduced the AMG GT road car, a sportier version in the GTR, and the race version AMG GT4. The GT has 557hp, 680Nm and in the UK costs £98k. The GTR has 585hp, 700Nm, active aero and costs £144k. These are road cars with DCT gearboxes and perhaps in model lineup terms analogous respectively, to the Cayman GT4 and a “GT4RS”. The Mercedes AMG GT4 race car has 510hp, 600Nm, sequential gearbox, double wishbone suspension front and rear, 6 speed sequential gearbox, carbon reinforced plastic body panels, and costs £198k. We all thought (well most did) that the Cayman GT4 Clubsport was rather under whelming as a race car but as often is the case with Porsche it has been quite successful in 2017. However Mercedes has rather upped the GT4 race car game, as have Audi and McLaren. Being in charge of Porsche’s GT and race car program and given homologation requirements, I would start with the race car, then work back to road car, so what to do about improving Porsche’s GT4 race car? Engine - needs more power but mainly torque - I’d go for a turbo but I don’t think a 4 pot would really be the go-to configuration Platform - Cayman currently is not big enough at the rear to have turbos and 6 cylinders nor a more sophisticated suspension set-up. Also the current T4 718 seems to have engine heat management issues based on comments in the SportAuto Supertest Non-issues: weight - Mercedes start with bloated road cars with their AMG GT/GTR so I don’t see fancy body materials as a key issue for a new Porsche GT4 race car, brakes - Clubsport uses existing GT race ready components so not really an issue aero - I would think this is more of a development focus rather than a fundamental issue gearbox - I don’t see this as an issue, manual and PDK proven option for road use, SADEV's or ANO's sequential for race cars With the objective of being really competitive in GT4, I’d revise the model hierarchy and separate road and GT, bite the 911/mid-engine platform pricing performance bullet and produce: GT4 road/track day car much as as 981 but with enlarged 991.1 4.0L engine, PDK and manual - simple development at £71k list GT4RS track day/road car with 991.2 GT3 engine, aero, PDK-S, fix rear suspension £110k list GT4 Clubsport race car version of RS with sequential gearbox, aero+ and stripped out a la 981 Clubsport £150k list The 991.2 GT3 engine with simplified valve train is used in Porsche race cars and must be the logical choice as it will fit in the Cayman shell and presumably cooling would not be an issue. Also presumably, the simplified valve train would be acceptable for homologation as it would be for reliability reasons and produce less power. I think this scenario fits all the various stories of what is/may be going on and would allow Porsche a reasonable chance of having some success in GT4 before a change to a completely new chassis platform in 2020/1 for all levels of GT motorsport. If the objective is not to compromise 911 GT cars and forgo international competitiveness, I'd just repeat the 981 formula of GT4 and a Clubsport version and wait for next platform iteration. What would you do and why? Mercedes GT4 hierarchy here Base https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/pass...es.module.html GTR http://tools.mercedes-benz.co.uk/current/passenger-cars/e-brochures/mercedes-amg-gtr.pdf?owda=amg+gt+coupé+r GT4 https://www.mercedes-amg.com/custome..._Online_EN.pdf
every thing I did not like in the GT4 has been fixed in the 991.2 GT3 as a road car. top end engine and long ratio's. now in the new GT3 are shorter ratio's and that monster of an engine.
for a race car the GT4 needs more aero, and has to be lighter with proper dampers so just put the GT3 engine in it and make it PDK.
for a new ROAD GT4, ditch the current calipers and disks (the yare stipid, over weight and not great units) , fit calipers you can change the pads in quick ,fit 3 way dampers, make it 50kg lighter, have about 450BHP, fit a light weight flywheel and a proper diff. And make sure it has adjustable rear toe links STANDARD !!!! Also drop the wheels back down to 19".
for a race car the GT4 needs more aero, and has to be lighter with proper dampers so just put the GT3 engine in it and make it PDK.
for a new ROAD GT4, ditch the current calipers and disks (the yare stipid, over weight and not great units) , fit calipers you can change the pads in quick ,fit 3 way dampers, make it 50kg lighter, have about 450BHP, fit a light weight flywheel and a proper diff. And make sure it has adjustable rear toe links STANDARD !!!! Also drop the wheels back down to 19".
Gazoak said:The current GT4 is a great car but I wouldn't swap PDK for manual and when my wife sees one she can't resist commenting on the "Halfords" rear spoiler!
I hate the spoiler too. If only they made a GT4 Touring.....
Well if that is the issue why not take the wing off your GT4 and have a stub wing made and fitted to balance out the aero?
Modifying cars to meet your requirements isn't so daunting as people think.
Modifying cars to meet your requirements isn't so daunting as people think.
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