Just received a subscriber's email from Autocar stating that the 718 Spyder will have the current 4.0 GT3 engine, probably de-tuned to 425bhp along with weight-saving features. Manual as standard, PDK optional, to be launched later this year. It also says that the Spyder is 'heavily related' to the 718 Cayman GT4 which may have a little more power....
Cayman GT4: Where are we up 2 now? Déjà vu Edition
- Thread starter ralphmusic
- Start date
These click bait pieces are really telling on the quality of journalism. 500hp to 425hp with a detune. Has the journalist any idea of how engines are "tuned" never mind detuned.
It doesn't state the individual responsible for the 'article' but I've just looked on the Spyder thread and it does look to be the same anonymous wording listed on there earlier this week which, at a glance, looked like some sort of leaked information to me.
Having said that, I can easily believe it, Autocar are usually pretty authoritative and it aligns with much of what AP has said in the past. The GT4 will certainly not be 4 pot or turbo in my opinion and it makes sense to offer both 'boxes.
Having said that, I can easily believe it, Autocar are usually pretty authoritative and it aligns with much of what AP has said in the past. The GT4 will certainly not be 4 pot or turbo in my opinion and it makes sense to offer both 'boxes.
Brian_Innes
Member
If the new GT4 is indeed to have a flat-6 n/a engine, then it shouldn't be marketed as a 718. That would go against everything Porsche said about the heritage of the 718 moniker. If they title the GT4 as a 718 then they are taking the market for fools. Call it a 982, but not a 718.
As for detuning the engines on the GT4, this is cynical to the extent of insulting their core market for GT cars. Porsche GT cars are not just a "trophy" to be paraded around shows and public gatherings. If I gauge the GT market correctly, these track focused cars from Porsche are precisely that. Track focused. Not detuned 911's to protect the Golden Goose. GT models are built, designed, and developed for optimum performance on the track, with the added advantage of being tractable and practicable enough to be driven to and from track day events. Whether it's a 911 or a Cayman based platform it should be optimised to the best possible standard. Not detuned to fit in with some marketing pecking order. GT cars are bought by enthusiasts, whether they be rear engined or mid engined fans. It's nothing to do with better being the most expensive. I wish Porsche would get this.
Apologies for the Victor Meldrew rant.
Brian
As for detuning the engines on the GT4, this is cynical to the extent of insulting their core market for GT cars. Porsche GT cars are not just a "trophy" to be paraded around shows and public gatherings. If I gauge the GT market correctly, these track focused cars from Porsche are precisely that. Track focused. Not detuned 911's to protect the Golden Goose. GT models are built, designed, and developed for optimum performance on the track, with the added advantage of being tractable and practicable enough to be driven to and from track day events. Whether it's a 911 or a Cayman based platform it should be optimised to the best possible standard. Not detuned to fit in with some marketing pecking order. GT cars are bought by enthusiasts, whether they be rear engined or mid engined fans. It's nothing to do with better being the most expensive. I wish Porsche would get this.
Apologies for the Victor Meldrew rant.
Brian
These cars are not just track based.
One definition of GT:
The terms "grand tourer", "grand turismo", "grand routiere", and "GT" are among the most misused terms in motoring. The grand touring designation generally "means motoring at speed, in style, safety, and comfort.”Purists define "gran turismo" as the enjoyment, excitement and comfort of open-road touring."
According to one author, "the ideal is of a car with the ability to cross a continent at speed and in comfort yet provide driving thrills when demanded" and it should exhibit the following:
[ul][*]The engines "should be able to cope with cruising comfortably at the upper limits on all continental roads without drawbacks or loss of usable power."[*]"Ideally, the GT car should have been devised by its progenitors as a Grand Tourer, with all associated considerations in mind."[*]"It should be able to transport at least two in comfort with their luggage and have room to spare — probably in the form of a two plus two (2+2) seating arrangement."[*]The design, both "inside and out, should be geared toward complete control by the driver."[*]Its "chassis and suspension provide suitable handling and roadholding on all routes" during travels.[/ul]Grand tourers emphasize comfort and handling over straight-out high performance or ascetic, spartan accommodations. In comparison, sports cars (also a "much abused and confused term") are typically more "crude" compared to "sophisticated Grand Touring machinery."However, the popularity of using GT for marketing purposes has meant that it has become a "much misused term, eventually signifying no more than a slightly tuned version of a family car with trendy wheels and a go-faster stripe on the side.
Ray
One definition of GT:
The terms "grand tourer", "grand turismo", "grand routiere", and "GT" are among the most misused terms in motoring. The grand touring designation generally "means motoring at speed, in style, safety, and comfort.”Purists define "gran turismo" as the enjoyment, excitement and comfort of open-road touring."
According to one author, "the ideal is of a car with the ability to cross a continent at speed and in comfort yet provide driving thrills when demanded" and it should exhibit the following:
[ul][*]The engines "should be able to cope with cruising comfortably at the upper limits on all continental roads without drawbacks or loss of usable power."[*]"Ideally, the GT car should have been devised by its progenitors as a Grand Tourer, with all associated considerations in mind."[*]"It should be able to transport at least two in comfort with their luggage and have room to spare — probably in the form of a two plus two (2+2) seating arrangement."[*]The design, both "inside and out, should be geared toward complete control by the driver."[*]Its "chassis and suspension provide suitable handling and roadholding on all routes" during travels.[/ul]Grand tourers emphasize comfort and handling over straight-out high performance or ascetic, spartan accommodations. In comparison, sports cars (also a "much abused and confused term") are typically more "crude" compared to "sophisticated Grand Touring machinery."However, the popularity of using GT for marketing purposes has meant that it has become a "much misused term, eventually signifying no more than a slightly tuned version of a family car with trendy wheels and a go-faster stripe on the side.
Ray
All in degrees. Porsche have typically been the cars you can drive on road and track with good performance and reliability. No BMW chocolate brakes or the like.
A 991.2 Carerra is fast on track, a GT3 faster and a higher downforce GT3 RS faster still. We have current Carerras faster than previous GT3 and RS versions and 718s at least as fast as GT4s. On certain tracks a 991.2 GTS will be as fast as a same generation GT3.
Yes you get more aero these days but RS are not race cars nor unusable on road trips.
A 991.2 Carerra is fast on track, a GT3 faster and a higher downforce GT3 RS faster still. We have current Carerras faster than previous GT3 and RS versions and 718s at least as fast as GT4s. On certain tracks a 991.2 GTS will be as fast as a same generation GT3.
Yes you get more aero these days but RS are not race cars nor unusable on road trips.
So you'll be turning one down on principle if you're offered one then, Brian?
I love my GT4 and an even better version would be very welcome in my garage. As a lifelong car nut, GT has never meant track-focused at the exclusion of all else to me (think Ferrari, Aston, Alfa...). The current GT4 does both perfectly well. It's very capable without being particularly hardcore.
My best mate has a GT4 with close to 10k 'social' miles on the clock and he wouldn't dream of tracking it. Like me he thinks that the gearing and performance of the loosened-up engine works really well, sticking mainly to the 4500 to 5500 rev range gives great real-world performance, plenty of cog-swapping and half a chance of keeping your licence if you pick your moments wisely. No guarantees.
Shorter gearing would appeal to me I guess but I never think about it currently. The extra power would be interesting too, especially on track. I hope I'm offered one.
I love my GT4 and an even better version would be very welcome in my garage. As a lifelong car nut, GT has never meant track-focused at the exclusion of all else to me (think Ferrari, Aston, Alfa...). The current GT4 does both perfectly well. It's very capable without being particularly hardcore.
My best mate has a GT4 with close to 10k 'social' miles on the clock and he wouldn't dream of tracking it. Like me he thinks that the gearing and performance of the loosened-up engine works really well, sticking mainly to the 4500 to 5500 rev range gives great real-world performance, plenty of cog-swapping and half a chance of keeping your licence if you pick your moments wisely. No guarantees.
Shorter gearing would appeal to me I guess but I never think about it currently. The extra power would be interesting too, especially on track. I hope I'm offered one.
I found the 981 GT4 disappointing in the engine department - no zing, no screaming revs - and I fear that a heavily de-tuned 4.0 would be even worse. I also don't drive on track, I'm road only.
For those reasons I'm not too bothered that, like a lot of people, I won't be able to get hold of a new 718 GT4.
For those reasons I'm not too bothered that, like a lot of people, I won't be able to get hold of a new 718 GT4.
So, given that the crankcases are almost the same in the 9A1 range, is the 3.8 that's already in the car a de-tuned GT3 engine ?
I am inclined to Brian's view.
It was irritating enough that the range of adjustment on the GT4 suspension was so limited at the real cost of waste tyres --- quite deliberately so --- and that P were so unforgiving of the effect of small modifications on the warranty (though I have had no claims --- have there been any ?).
If they have old GT3 engines (which they should have) ... I'm cool with a re-map that tops power out at 450 + BHP but maxes out mid-range torque .... but 425 is verging on the minimal gap from the existing 3.8 to a reamed out 4.0 litre ...
In which case, why call it a GT4 ??
I am inclined to Brian's view.
It was irritating enough that the range of adjustment on the GT4 suspension was so limited at the real cost of waste tyres --- quite deliberately so --- and that P were so unforgiving of the effect of small modifications on the warranty (though I have had no claims --- have there been any ?).
If they have old GT3 engines (which they should have) ... I'm cool with a re-map that tops power out at 450 + BHP but maxes out mid-range torque .... but 425 is verging on the minimal gap from the existing 3.8 to a reamed out 4.0 litre ...
In which case, why call it a GT4 ??
ChrisW said:
Porsche have typically improved engine power from one generation to the next by opening the throttle some more and raising the rev limit - DFI 997 to 991.1 went from 385 to 400, 981 Boxster S to Cayman GTS a difference of 30hp - that is tuning. The X51 options on 3.8 engines gained another 30 or so hp with internal changes - camshafts, plenum, heads mainly on the intake side.
The 991.1 GT3/RS/R engines have gone though at least 3 versions, all aimed at coping with the higher stresses and oiling of that engine's higher rev limits and pressures on the drive train; the internals such as crank, rods, pistons, heads etc are all different to the cooking version.
People who hope for a detuned GT3 engine that retains all the unique higher cost internals but which is simply constrained by an ECU tune will I believe, be disappointed.
If people want a engine that will rev freely and have good mid range torque, fit a X51 PowerKit and better exhaust manifold to the 3.8.
ralphmusic said:
Ralph,
I think you and I appear to be the only ones singing from the same hymn sheet on this one.
Stiffened crankshaft, titanium conrods, forged pistons, finger-operated valves, Variocam Plus on inlet and exhaust camshafts, dry sump system....it just isn't goint to happen on a £70k-£75k car. More likely we're going to see a stroked version of the 3.8L engine, which means that it won't be a high-revving screamer; in fact it may be even more rev-restricted owing to piston speed limitations. More torque though to complement the high gearing.
Assuming the engine will be shared with the Spyder, I can't see the justification of plonking a derated GT3 engine in that car.
Jeff
Published yesterday but, as usual, who knows how current/valid it is...?
http://sportscar365.com/imsa/ctscc/porsche-developing-new-gt4-car-for-2019/
"However, Walliser indicated there will not likely be a set limit of cars produced, as Porsche looks to meet the platform’s increased demand."
Jeff
http://sportscar365.com/imsa/ctscc/porsche-developing-new-gt4-car-for-2019/
"However, Walliser indicated there will not likely be a set limit of cars produced, as Porsche looks to meet the platform’s increased demand."
Jeff
Brian_Innes
Member
Just my 2p's worth.
I'm thinking Porsche are currently testing two GT mules with both the flat-6 n/a and flat-4 turbo engines, the Boxster with the flat-6, and the 718 Cayman with the flat-4T. Whichever engine comes out best is anyone's guess. It's a complex decision.
I'm watching with great interest.
Brian
I'm thinking Porsche are currently testing two GT mules with both the flat-6 n/a and flat-4 turbo engines, the Boxster with the flat-6, and the 718 Cayman with the flat-4T. Whichever engine comes out best is anyone's guess. It's a complex decision.
I'm watching with great interest.
Brian
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I've posted on this car before but this is what can be done..
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