So you are up as well........[
]
]Inlet and exhaust upgrades???
- Thread starter 333pg333
- Start date
At this stage I'd also like to ask with all the sophisticated electronics and all the appropriate sensors attached, why can't these standalones or chip/p-backs be told what a/f curve, at a certain desired psi, on a certain octane fuel, just auto tune it exactly??? I mean this is a very easy command to process I would think? Why can't they just do it? I know there are some that have auto tune capacity but why is there scant regard paid to this function. Why do we have to spend countless $$$ and hours at the dyno or with a laptop? Surely this can happen!!!
Guest
New member
Patrick, actually it's funny you mention the "auto-tune" thing. I was going to point out that there are actually more and more things coming on the market that have these features. The AEM efi can use a wideband O2 Sensor, map sensor, intake air temp sensor, etc and with the wideband you can do exactly as you described. Basically plug in an a/f and it will "auto-tune" for this a/f. I believe the IAT sensor might be required with the wideband for this to work, however I'm not 100% sure. Also, even piggybacks are now starting to appear with this feature. To anyone considering the chip/piggyback route, I would highly recommend checking out the Greddy E-Manage Ultimate: http://www.greddy.com/products/display/?Category=electronics&SubCategory=47 This piggyback alone offers so much more advanced features and even this piggyback is technologically more advanced then the stock Motronic. The E-Manage Ultimate has the wideband auto-tune feature, as well as the ability to convert to a map sensor, sequential injection, etc etc. It's a long list! [] That piggyback is pretty impressive as it offers about 90+% of the features of a good aftermarket EFI, yet you just splice it into your existing harness and it is designed to be able to read a wide variety of sensors. That eliminates the need for building/terminating a custom harness, using custom sensors, etc etc. I think I'm starting to sound like a sales pitch. Anyways, technology is awesome and the best part is that we have so many more options today then we would have had say 10 years ago. More and more of this advanced technology is becoming more common and more affordable fortunately.
As for what type of tuning system people should use, whether it is aftermarket efi or tuned chips, I think it really depends on the individual in question. There is plenty of info out there for the motivated and willing individual to piece together a setup themselves successfully. Personally, I'd highly recommend having an experienced and reputable tuner handle the tuning. One wrong thing can blow your motor pretty quickly. For those that don't have the time or effort needed to pursue such a route, they'd be better off either buying a complete plug and play aftermarket setup (if that is financially viable) or going the tuned chip route. There are good people out there that are excellent at tuning the stock Motronic. You just have to watch out for the bad ones. Ultimately, any decent aftermarket efi has the components to only improve over the stock Motronic. The hardware and software itself is generally going to be better and more advanced, though none of that matters when it isn't tuned right. I think the question people should ask themselves is whether they have either the money to buy a plug and play efi (there are setups out there, though not too common) or if they have the patience and willingness to learn how to do it themselves. I think those 2 questions alone will determine which route someone should take.
] That piggyback is pretty impressive as it offers about 90+% of the features of a good aftermarket EFI, yet you just splice it into your existing harness and it is designed to be able to read a wide variety of sensors. That eliminates the need for building/terminating a custom harness, using custom sensors, etc etc. I think I'm starting to sound like a sales pitch. Anyways, technology is awesome and the best part is that we have so many more options today then we would have had say 10 years ago. More and more of this advanced technology is becoming more common and more affordable fortunately.As for what type of tuning system people should use, whether it is aftermarket efi or tuned chips, I think it really depends on the individual in question. There is plenty of info out there for the motivated and willing individual to piece together a setup themselves successfully. Personally, I'd highly recommend having an experienced and reputable tuner handle the tuning. One wrong thing can blow your motor pretty quickly. For those that don't have the time or effort needed to pursue such a route, they'd be better off either buying a complete plug and play aftermarket setup (if that is financially viable) or going the tuned chip route. There are good people out there that are excellent at tuning the stock Motronic. You just have to watch out for the bad ones. Ultimately, any decent aftermarket efi has the components to only improve over the stock Motronic. The hardware and software itself is generally going to be better and more advanced, though none of that matters when it isn't tuned right. I think the question people should ask themselves is whether they have either the money to buy a plug and play efi (there are setups out there, though not too common) or if they have the patience and willingness to learn how to do it themselves. I think those 2 questions alone will determine which route someone should take.
So Trav, what are these plug 'n' play products? Do you mean by E.F.I. (electronic fuel injection) a standalone? I assume you're going the whole standalone system and tune it yourself? It does get confusing, as a pleb, which way to go. I think luckily I have pretty much all next year to decide as I will not modify mine until after next season due to the very good chance of winning the club champs by staying where I am in class. This will give both me and the vendors more time to hone various products. Jon is obviously working on a few new things which, although he is remaining stealth a.t.m., I feel will be very much applicable to this 'quest'. Evil Dave is also on the case, along with Chris White and others. So while I am champing at the bit, patience shall not go unrewarded. I feel strongly that next year shall be a renaissance of the 944 turbo on more than 1 continent. My mechanic has just won this years club champs in his '86. I came 4th out of 70 cars. Next year he has moved up a class with some mods and I will go pretty well so I feel that there will be some more of our cars on the podium in years to come. Which is, after all, part of the masterplan. (Cue mad scientist laughter)
DivineE
New member
Well I'm totally out of breath after reading all of that! Worse still though it looks like I'll be totally out of wallet for say... the rest of my life!!!
I thought by solving the inherent weakness of the 944 engine, which I heard due to the internal design of the engine (both the lack of support for the bores and the basic lower strength of the aluminium used) could only support a maximum of 1.6bar boost pressure before things start to fail! I had done most of the costly work in modifying the car but just reading though...
Now that we are talking 600rwhp!!!
1. Standalone engine management including all work and tuning £5-6k
2. Individual throttle bodies of custom length £1k minimum
3. Custom built intercooler to remove bottle neck £500 ish
4. Full custom exhaust designed to suit my engine £1k
5. Strengthened drive chain and gear box £5-6k (I'm thinking sequential 6-speed with 80% locking diff - got to be done!)
6. Suspension to stop rear end planning a few inches of tarmac off the road when power is used £1500
7. Serious brakes to cope with inevitable silly driving £1k
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!! We're talking another £17,000.00 right that's it I'm not listening to any of you guys! la la la I can't hear you costing me money!
Seriously though this has turned into a top topic and it's really really good to hear all your different experiences and approaches.
Plus with reference to the earlier comments about products from America I know there are good bits too but I have to say its parts like the Lindsey Racing Dual port wastegate which I bought and then gave away for half the price because I would have felt guilty selling it for anymore that ruin reputations!
If it was being sold as a really cheap replacement option that would be fine but to sell it at a similar competing price with products such as Tial wastegates??! How can this be justified?!! Simply by the name?
I got it out of the box new and then noticed that I could clearly see light through the gap between the casting and the valve! This is just not the kind of engineering quality I expect at the price. I can say this because I'm an individual with nothing to sell but I would ask anyone who doubts my word hold a Tial in one hand and a LR in the other and say different.
Ben
I thought by solving the inherent weakness of the 944 engine, which I heard due to the internal design of the engine (both the lack of support for the bores and the basic lower strength of the aluminium used) could only support a maximum of 1.6bar boost pressure before things start to fail! I had done most of the costly work in modifying the car but just reading though...
Now that we are talking 600rwhp!!!
1. Standalone engine management including all work and tuning £5-6k
2. Individual throttle bodies of custom length £1k minimum
3. Custom built intercooler to remove bottle neck £500 ish
4. Full custom exhaust designed to suit my engine £1k
5. Strengthened drive chain and gear box £5-6k (I'm thinking sequential 6-speed with 80% locking diff - got to be done!)
6. Suspension to stop rear end planning a few inches of tarmac off the road when power is used £1500
7. Serious brakes to cope with inevitable silly driving £1k
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!! We're talking another £17,000.00 right that's it I'm not listening to any of you guys! la la la I can't hear you costing me money!
Seriously though this has turned into a top topic and it's really really good to hear all your different experiences and approaches.
Plus with reference to the earlier comments about products from America I know there are good bits too but I have to say its parts like the Lindsey Racing Dual port wastegate which I bought and then gave away for half the price because I would have felt guilty selling it for anymore that ruin reputations!
If it was being sold as a really cheap replacement option that would be fine but to sell it at a similar competing price with products such as Tial wastegates??! How can this be justified?!! Simply by the name?
I got it out of the box new and then noticed that I could clearly see light through the gap between the casting and the valve! This is just not the kind of engineering quality I expect at the price. I can say this because I'm an individual with nothing to sell but I would ask anyone who doubts my word hold a Tial in one hand and a LR in the other and say different.
Ben
That's interesting Ben as I had almost the opposite impression after problems with my Tial38. It jammed shut and my engine boosted to 2.1 bar and no I don't mean 1.1 atmospheric, I mean 30+ psi!!! This was on the track with my helmet on so very hard to hear engine pinging it's head off. Luckily I had my apexi ebc in the cabin that day that showed the boost levels or else it would have been KABOOM! Also the diamond flange had almost no metal surrounding it to prevent leakage. My mechanic thought it was some toy for a 1.4ltr Japanese car and refused to work on my car until I agreed to supplant it with the Lindsey dpwg. He does that from time to time. Then I tried to get some compensation from the vendor who wanted nothing to do with me and still doesn't even though he comes with a good reputation. Anyway that's just my story.
As for the upgrades costing money, better start buying those lottery tickets mate!
As for the upgrades costing money, better start buying those lottery tickets mate!
Guest
New member
Oops. Sorry Patrick, I meant aftermarket engine management. Sometimes I keep using the term aftermarket efi as it's a popular term in the 930 world and I research those cars quite a bit as much of the info does apply to my 3.2 Carrera since it has a turbo kit.
It does also sound to me like next year will be a great one for the 944 community as quite a few people have some interesting projects going around the world.
DivineE, yeah I try not to think of things in a total cost sort of way! It's just too saddening to think about. Not to mention add the costs of a built motor and things only skyrocket from there! Luckily, it appears our motors are built pretty well in stock form. You can make quite a bit of horsepower on the stock bottom end if everything is put together properly and you are careful of tuning. That alone can save a significant amount of money when shooting for moderate power levels. Though, at higher levels like 500-600+rwhp, personally I feel that I'd rather buy more parts then are necessary and build a completely bulletproof motor so that I don't find out the hard way exactly where the limit of the stock pieces is. That is of course going to cost quite a bit more money, though that doesn't necessarily mean all of those components are 100% necessary to sustain those higher power levels. Too few have pushed that high for us to know for sure, so at this point I think much of it is still speculation. Just FYI but, one guy here in the states is pusing 541rwhp and 571rwtq on a STOCK bottom end (stock pistons & rods, not sure on rod bolts though). I'm not entirely sure on what is done to his motor, and unfortunately he seems to be one of the types to like to keep things a mystery.
It does also sound to me like next year will be a great one for the 944 community as quite a few people have some interesting projects going around the world.
DivineE, yeah I try not to think of things in a total cost sort of way! It's just too saddening to think about. Not to mention add the costs of a built motor and things only skyrocket from there! Luckily, it appears our motors are built pretty well in stock form. You can make quite a bit of horsepower on the stock bottom end if everything is put together properly and you are careful of tuning. That alone can save a significant amount of money when shooting for moderate power levels. Though, at higher levels like 500-600+rwhp, personally I feel that I'd rather buy more parts then are necessary and build a completely bulletproof motor so that I don't find out the hard way exactly where the limit of the stock pieces is. That is of course going to cost quite a bit more money, though that doesn't necessarily mean all of those components are 100% necessary to sustain those higher power levels. Too few have pushed that high for us to know for sure, so at this point I think much of it is still speculation. Just FYI but, one guy here in the states is pusing 541rwhp and 571rwtq on a STOCK bottom end (stock pistons & rods, not sure on rod bolts though). I'm not entirely sure on what is done to his motor, and unfortunately he seems to be one of the types to like to keep things a mystery.
My Autronic has autotune, it isn't all that. For a start it can only do fuel, so you still need to map ignition somehow (there was talk of pressure sensing plugs, but I don;t know that it's working yet and they probably cost as much as a dyno tune). Also you really need to be able to hold the car in each cell to tune it and that is so hard on the road that you need to do it on a dyno, so you may as well buy the tuner with the machine and get it done properly.
It was OK for running the car in as it was (still is?) the only 944T with SM4 on the planet and therefore there was no base map so it gave me some confidence the fuelling was safe.
The GReddy Emanage is popular with the MX5 (Miata) turbo crowd (mine had Link 2 standalone so no direct experience), though I have to say if you're going to take the time to splice a piggyback in between the Motronic and the sensors then tune it you may as well splice a standalone in place of the Motroninc and tune that.
It was OK for running the car in as it was (still is?) the only 944T with SM4 on the planet and therefore there was no base map so it gave me some confidence the fuelling was safe.
The GReddy Emanage is popular with the MX5 (Miata) turbo crowd (mine had Link 2 standalone so no direct experience), though I have to say if you're going to take the time to splice a piggyback in between the Motronic and the sensors then tune it you may as well splice a standalone in place of the Motroninc and tune that.
sawood12
New member
£17k plus the price of the car in the first place is pretty cheap for 600HP! Can't think of any other car that can give you that along will all the other benefits a 944 gives you for anywhere near that sort of money. If you can get past the thought of spending that sort of cash on a 20yr old car then you'll end up with some pretty impressive piece of kit. I'd hate to insure the thing though!
I read an article on RUF a while back in one of the Porsche mags and the guy from RUF was explaining that their philosophy is to concentrate on getting the engine hardware and EMS as good as possible thus achieving their monstorous HP levels on relatively low boost pressures. Seems like the best way to go in my mind but probably the most costly to develop as this thread is highlighting. I like Ricks idea of increasing the engine compression ratio and utilising lower boost pressures.
But once again alot of the drive for these mods appears to be out and out max HP, it certainly seems to be the main driving force on Rennlist. I would be much more interested in more moderate HP and Torque figures but a flatter and wider curve (i.e. maximising area under the curve), the power coming in early and progressively and remaining until the red line. I think this will ultimately lead to a faster and more capable "real world" car. I think the mods required to achieve this aim will look very different from the mods required to achieve 600 bhp.
With these laptop programmable EMS systems I see the possiblility of a staged upgrade programme with pre-programmed maps supplied with the software. For example stage 1 could be a standard car with the replacement EMS, stage 2 could be with the addition of a DPW and boost controller, stage 3 could be upgraded exhaust, stage 4 upgraded turbo, stage 5 upgraded intake, stage 6 fancy coil-on ignition. This would provide the part time DIY'er and Champions League modder (as opposed to Premiership) with an off-the-shelf package that could be installed in logical stages and provide the pre-programmed EMS maps that would be 90% there and give you (or an experienced tuner) the added ability to fine tune it to better suit your hardware setup if you so desire. It would still be V.expensive but would minimise the expense and risk and take away the sheer intimidation that us meer mortals have when it comes to these things.
Standalone EMS is great but its only ever going to be as good as the person who sets it up. I think the US tuners do very well with an off the shelf kit compared to some of the acknowledged experts over here. We saw it with Guru equipped cars against Wayned custom mapped cars on the first dyno day. I was also suspicious of the number of cars that suffered HG failures after 'Wayning'. I know the chips are not perfect and can suffer richness but then with a piggyback you can massage these numbers. Rick is probably having the most success with standalone in the UK, not sure how much mapping he does on the road and how much was done at Weltmeister and how much input each side provides. I do know he has spent a lot of development hours on setting it up to run as smoothly as it does now. The smoothness and driveability is very impressive and better than you could achieve with the standard brain, but is the extra cost worth it (probably if you live in Kens backyard and have to put up with his view of traffic mismanagment []).
I will be interested to see how good I can get my car with the standard brain/SMT6 and vittsse MAF
The other problem with the standard brain is it is 20 years old plus and the electronics will not last forever - on the flipside are the aftermarket EMS units built and tested to the same standards or better.
Tony
]).I will be interested to see how good I can get my car with the standard brain/SMT6 and vittsse MAF
The other problem with the standard brain is it is 20 years old plus and the electronics will not last forever - on the flipside are the aftermarket EMS units built and tested to the same standards or better.
Tony
Scott I agree with you that even spending the $$ on our cars gives you an incredible product that is in the 'Supercar' bracket. In terms of ultimate hp v's driveability it really depends on your desired application. For guys that aren't going to see much if any trackwork then sure 600+hp is fine for them. For others who want something that gives them a car to really leap out of corners and still have plenty of mumbo down the straights then mid range focus is where I'm looking at. There will be enough torque due to matching turbo with other components and 3.0l capacity along with some head and breathing mods to satisfy the racers and street useage.
Please don't ever big Danno's name up again, lol.. Now I know why you guys are down on the US, lol..
As far as the Lindsey DP. I think that it was made to compete in a stock class. I never had one and can't comment on it but I don't feel that Lindsey puts out a great product. I think they are 80% there but could be better. I like some things and absolutley hate others. Thats just my opinion.
We are starting a new project this weekend. We are going to try to sit the engine as low as we can in the car and test fit a new belt drive system to see if it can free up some HP. We cut the balance shaft belt on the dyno and picked of 7hp, woo hoo! LOL.
Dave
I have had a number of Tial 44, 38mm etc.. With no problems at all.
Patrick, I'm surprised to hear that.
Guest
New member
Evil 944t, the Danno guy wasn't a complete idiot. While he had some pretty crappy business practices, and I think he ultimately screwed some people in the end, he actually had some sound theories about certain things. For example, implementing D ports in the 944 head to aid in increasing airflow velocity. Wow, what a surprise, most car manufacturers (at least Japanese ones) currently implement D ports in stock production heads including some incredibly efficient stock production motors. Unfortunately on Rennlist (at least the 944 section), innovative new thinking seems to be unconciously frowned upon by the horde of people stuck in old-tech ways. Either way, unfortunately for him he wasn't a business man and screwed people over. [
]
DivineE
New member
I have to say I'm honestly quite suprised about that! Whilst the internals are an unknown black magic of design to me, just looking at the quality of the finish and the way the valve seats itself I struggle to image how anyone could look at the Tial and think that?! Well I suppose we are all driven by our own experiences. Yours certainly gives my something else to think about! Perhaps I should go in search of other wastegate manufacturers?? Since its such a vital component. Still... 2.1 bar[8D] must have been sealing well[
][]Ben
Indi9xx
New member
I think the problem is that the Tial38 is a very small wastegate... where as the one fitted to Paul Smith's car, the one we have shown Ben, and the one we tend to use is the much bigger Tial.
Interestingly, wastegates are widely missunderstood... In some applications, where a well matched turbo is employed, the wastegate will be required to flow little air, so a small wastegate is fine... Just take a look at turbo's with integral wastegates, the flap is tiny compared with any Tial.
The benefit of a bigger tial is that it *can* flow more exhaust gas than is required, which makes it easier to run whatever boost you choose, which gives you flexability. A baby tial for example would not be much good for a low boost application with a missmatched turbo or a wide boost rpm range in some cases.
I dont think that there is much wrong with a baby tial38, but it all depends on the application and how much exhaust gas you expect it to need to vent... if you expect it to be working hard, you maybe have too large a turbo for your application in some cases.
Interestingly, wastegates are widely missunderstood... In some applications, where a well matched turbo is employed, the wastegate will be required to flow little air, so a small wastegate is fine... Just take a look at turbo's with integral wastegates, the flap is tiny compared with any Tial.
The benefit of a bigger tial is that it *can* flow more exhaust gas than is required, which makes it easier to run whatever boost you choose, which gives you flexability. A baby tial for example would not be much good for a low boost application with a missmatched turbo or a wide boost rpm range in some cases.
I dont think that there is much wrong with a baby tial38, but it all depends on the application and how much exhaust gas you expect it to need to vent... if you expect it to be working hard, you maybe have too large a turbo for your application in some cases.
To be honest I don't think there was any underlying problem with the components of the Tial38 (except it jammed and could have blown my motor). There are some issues with the design not being for our cars and as I said the diamond shaped flange is not big enough to ensure a safe seal in our opinion. I've not seen a 46 to notice the difference and I've always heard good things with the brand (They're rumoured to be coming up with a turbo for our cars but not sure when) so I wouldn't rule using one again if it was improved. I also learnt a lesson in retail that I was surprised about especially as this person enjoys a good rep in the Rennlist community which may have left a sour taste. Anyway I've had no probs with the Lindsey at 1-1.3 bar so far.
Just to recap this post so far. There looks to be some good work still going on and some good products that are yet to reach the market which is exciting. The whole thing is quite daunting as the more you get to know you realise that you don't in fact know enough to make a decision about all the components that go into a serious upgrade. At the beggining of this post I questioned Fen's assertion that some dyno figures of supposedly the UK's most powerful 944t were too low, especially the torque. I couldn't imagine that the head and the intake could be to blame for this. Well I have learnt on this one post that indeed they can in fact have a major impact and so I offer my apologies for ever having doubted you. (Much obsequious bowing and scraping going on [&:][&:][&:]) So keep it coming please. Go off on tangents if you wish. The more the better. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose benefited so far.
Just to recap this post so far. There looks to be some good work still going on and some good products that are yet to reach the market which is exciting. The whole thing is quite daunting as the more you get to know you realise that you don't in fact know enough to make a decision about all the components that go into a serious upgrade. At the beggining of this post I questioned Fen's assertion that some dyno figures of supposedly the UK's most powerful 944t were too low, especially the torque. I couldn't imagine that the head and the intake could be to blame for this. Well I have learnt on this one post that indeed they can in fact have a major impact and so I offer my apologies for ever having doubted you. (Much obsequious bowing and scraping going on [&:][&:][&:]) So keep it coming please. Go off on tangents if you wish. The more the better. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose benefited so far.
[/quote]
Evil 944t, the Danno guy wasn't a complete idiot. While he had some pretty crappy business practices, and I think he ultimately screwed some people in the end, he actually had some sound theories about certain things.
Unfortunately on Rennlist (at least the 944 section), innovative new thinking seems to be unconciously frowned upon by the horde of people stuck in old-tech ways. [
][/quote]
Yes and yes, He was pretty sharp, he just wasn't a good business man. The thing about thr RL is the people that are stuck are generally the people that been there forever so everyone listens and because they don't try anything, that means there is nothing to try.
Your GT35 install is breaking ground with them. I wish you the best of luck. I never saw one on a pretty stock motor. I have to pick one up next week because we a cnc'ing a complete driver side engine mount in hopes of making it a bolt on turbo.(minus the exhaustwork,of course)
DivineE
New member
I may be adding 1 and 1 to make three but suddenly I suspect that 'Porchephile' is the chap with a web site full of video's of his turbo and three stage rev limiter??? Am I thinking of the right car here?
Because I only remember cars and not people I would not remember anything else about you or previous posts but if that is indeed your car then I have been meaning to say for a long time WELL DONE, CONGRATULATIONS etc etc thats the most fun looking 944 turbo I've ever seen and seriously quick too!
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