Inlet and exhaust upgrades???

[Indi9xx]

No, the whole point is trying to make it easier for a novice to benefit from aftermarket EMS.

At the moment, the average 944 turbo enthusiast, who wants to benefit from a Motec EMS, is faced with a knowledge brick wall. They have to wire up a harness, create a cam sync solution, hope it all works, then they have to set it up blind, figure out what all the settings are from the confusing lack of easy to use instructions and hope they can get it all running.. let alone tuning it.

If a 944 turbo enthusiast can afford to buy a Motec, but isnt any good with electrics and solering/making harnesses, isnt familuar with the Motec software and hasnt got a clue how to configure the Motec, they have a choice of paying someone alot of money to wire it up, then a whole load more money to get someone to get the car running, then a whole load more money to get it tuned anywhere near to having a decent map....

And believe me, there seems to be a lot more people out there saying they can wire, setup and tune motec, than there is who can actually follow through and complete the job...

So the whole thing becomes a BIG confusing barrier to going EMS..

What we are working on, is a very affordable solution to interface Motec onto the 944 turbo, with a pre engineered cam/sync trigger (we have devised a cunning solution for this), a database of basic 944 turbo maps with free updates AND support from people who know the 944 turbo.

What this would give the 944 turbo community is a short cut and affordable way into having a Motec EMS on their 944 turbo.... No paying an autoelectrician, no having to recover the car to a Motec technician just to get it running, not to mention having to pay the Motec man to get it running... All they need pay for on top is for the MotecMan and his dyno to get it fine tuned.... Is there something wrong with that?

Its not even something thats a business proposition, more a labour of love... Having had to spend far too much time messing about soldering up looms for Motec, having to figure out whats required, not to mention having to spend time figuring out how to get a car running right on it, its something that for me is worth the time and effort turning into a kit so other people do not have to bang their head against the same wall.

I dont ever think it would be a "plug it in and forget about it" solution.... But something so people can "plug it in and drive to the dyno for final mapping" solution....

Rick is very capable, as are many others.... But if they were not so capable, their projects would have cost them far more with auto electricians and Motec pro's and would have been far from something the average enthusiastic DIY 944 turbo tuner could do on their own.

There may already be solutions out there just like this... But what the hell, the more there are, the better it will be for everyone.

 

[Indi9xx]

Why is there a problem running big injectors on the 944 turbo with Motronic?

I keep hearing this from all corners...

John Vitesse recently told us on the phone...

"You cant get a 944 turbo with Motronic to idle with 72lbs injectors"

.....While we were stood in my workshop next to a 944 turbo engine idling perfectly with 72lbs injectors... We have now used Motronic with bigger than 55lbs injectors several times.

I dont blame John for thinking this... there are so many people peddling a set of used injectors from another application (muscle car) that are 72 lbs items, that have been cleaned and flow tested, packaged with balast resisters as some kind of plug in replacement... That they are selling as a "New set of 55(or 72) lbs injectors for the 944 turbo."

I think the problem is that people tend to use off the shelf injectors intended for another application (often used from some american scrap yard), with roughly the right resistance, a pack of ballast resisters wired in and a chip made from some egit with a g-force meter and AFR kit expecting results.

Motronic has its limitations, I agree... Aftermarket EMS is the way forward, *once you pass a certain point in your search for power* , but I think that Motronic is widely miss understood as far as peoples expectations of its limitations.

I have my own opinions about performance, these opinions should not be classed as gospel, no one knows it all... But I do at times think that there are a lot of tuners with good reputations that are selling a crock of polished "something" to cash in on 944 turbo owners...

So I applogise if I offend anyone, but I think we are among friends here.... So just tell me if you think I am "full of it" or if you think I am wrong, you may be right.. you may be wrong...

After all, a couple of years ago I thought that some products from a US based tuning company for the 944 turbo were quite good products, now I would not touch them with a barge pole... Next year I may think everything that this year seemed like a good idea was actually really dumb...., I will say up front that I am still learning, everyone is, and anyone who is open minded and honest will also admit they are the same... []

 

[sawood12]

Wouldn't it be a much more elegant solution to have two smaller injectors rather than one large one? This would give you the flexibility to run three configurations depending upon your needs at that time? Would the aftermarket EMS systems be able to control such a configuration?

I for one would be a potential punter for some sort of off-the-shelf aftermarket EMS system. I neither have the funds nor the time to really indulge in hardcore upgrading of the sort being discussed here, but would be very interested in some of the other benefits of a more modern EMS system such as better fuel economy and emissions, switchable maps and just generally getting the best out of a more stock engine/turbo/exhaust/MAF or MAP set up.

 

[Indi9xx]

There is indeed an advantage to running more than one set of injectors.

Not sure which aftermarket EMS can take advantage of it.

 

[evil 944t]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

Why is there a problem running big injectors on the 944 turbo with Motronic?

I keep hearing this from all corners...

John Vitesse recently told us on the phone...

"You cant get a 944 turbo with Motronic to idle with 72lbs injectors"

.....While we were stood in my workshop next to a 944 turbo engine idling perfectly with 72lbs injectors... We have now used Motronic with bigger than 55lbs injectors several times.

I dont blame John for thinking this... there are so many people peddling a set of used injectors from another application (muscle car) that are 72 lbs items, that have been cleaned and flow tested, packaged with balast resisters as some kind of plug in replacement... That they are selling as a "New set of 55(or 72) lbs injectors for the 944 turbo."

I think the problem is that people tend to use off the shelf injectors intended for another application (often used from some american scrap yard), with roughly the right resistance, a pack of ballast resisters wired in and a chip made from some egit with a g-force meter and AFR kit expecting results.

Motronic has its limitations, I agree... Aftermarket EMS is the way forward, *once you pass a certain point in your search for power* , but I think that Motronic is widely miss understood as far as peoples expectations of its limitations.

So I applogise if I offend anyone, but I think we are among friends here.... So just tell me if you think I am "full of it" or if you think I am wrong, you may be right.. you may be wrong...

I know for a fact that John's software idles 72's all day long. You might have spoken to him before he re did his software. Although he's been running them for over a year.( keep in mind I have nothing to do with him, just informing)

I also believe you have a poor idea of whats going on in the states. While I do not think believe the tuners here are the end all, I do believe some are doing so very good work. Over priced? I would say maybe under engineered. I also don't know many people using "junk yard parts" and making real HP/torque.

For the benifit of everyone here, I would like to hear/see/challenge you to tell me about one product/idea you might have that is so " wonderful" that we "everyone here" hasn't seen or heard of.

As far as learning goes, I learn every day. I stopped taking theories as gospel 15 years ago. Nothing but engineering, building and testing for me.

 

[333pg333]

John may I ask you for an approx. eta on this and the breathing mods you were alluding to before? Now bear in mind that you seem to offer assistance and instruction plus run the everyday side of your business which can obviously waylay you at times so allow for these delays if you would.
Thanks
Patrick

 

[evil 944t]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Wouldn't it be a much more elegant solution to have two smaller injectors rather than one large one? This would give you the flexibility to run three configurations depending upon your needs at that time? Would the aftermarket EMS systems be able to control such a configuration?

I for one would be a potential punter for some sort of off-the-shelf aftermarket EMS system.

Scott, many EMS systems control 1-12 injectors. You hae to buy the EMS with the proper amount of drivers for each injector. Unless you are over 500hp, 4 - 72lb injectors(with the proper pump, pressure and volume) will do. A bit larger would actually be better,

The stock Motronic is a stand alone. Its a factory stand alone. Some people already have reconfigured it to work like an aftermarket EMS. Including "real time" tuning, using all the factory sensors.

Dave

 

[Indi9xx]

John Vitesse.. I think it was september this year... No more than 3 months ago in any case. When we mentioned on the phone about using 72lbs injectors....

"Oh, a 944 turbo with 72lbs injectors will never idle"

All I can say is that he said this... I dont know why he said this, but we know that 72lbs injectors will idle... and by what you say, he knows it will idle... So why do you think he said this????

Into proving a point or rising to a challenge.... I have a small group of people I prove points to, thats my customers... Thats all, certainly not you Dave

Used injectors.... Anyone with half a brain can tell the difference between a new injector, and a scratched up used one... Either the American company who's box the injectors I have seen use used ones, or their UK importer swaps them for used ones. or maybe customers who have brought the injectors for some reason swap them for used ones before they ask me to install them...... I dont know, and I dont really care, but I have unwrapped some of these injectors that customers have brought, in front of their eyes and shown them exactly what they have brought... I am not going to mention who the company is or be dragged into an argument about it though.

I am also aware of what is happening in USA 944 turbo tuning.. its all very interesting, but only someone who is really arogant would say its the "end all", so I am pleased you agree that it isnt... But I am also not impressed with much of it.... Although having said that.. there is some really good stuff also, its just a case of looking for the weat among the chaff.

 

[Diver944]

How about the exhaust systems for a Turbocharged car? In simple terms I've always thought that a turbocharged car wants the largest bore with as few curves or restrictions as possible so that the exhaust gases can disappear down the pipe as fast as possible and not slow down the turbo spooling.

In the UK most of us use our cars mainly as everyday road cars with occasional track use (maybe a max of 6-10 track days a year). Track days are strongly policed and noise limits are generally restricted to 98 decibels from a metre behind the pipe so a carefully thought out silencing sytem needs to be designed. We also have heavily salted roads over the winter so the system needs to be very good quality if it is to last.

Most readily available systems seem to be 3" with some starting out at 3" then widening to 4". Am I right in thinking the original Turbo Cup cars were 4" the whole length? I now have a 3.2L engine and a very quick spooling ball race turbocharger but I have a major restriction in the original exhaust, so this topic is of great interest to me []

 

[944Turbo]

I thought John (Vittesse) recommended 72lb injectors - with his MAF and chip board anyway,
Tony

 

[Indi9xx]

Well thats a good point Tony, which is why its so odd he would say what he said... Unless he means that 72 lbs injectors will not work on the Motronic without one of his boards, as we were talking to him about using a custom chip to run 72lbs injectors on a straight DME... or maybe he was just trying to make a sale of one of his boards, who knows..

 

[evil 944t]

Jon,
I can not speak for John(VR). He has had this for a long while. Maybe he doesn't want to share his findings. Some people don't share in fear of others duplicating ,Oh well.

I hope your not upset with me challenging you. I have no problem with you, heck, I don't even know you.

It just seems as you have a lot of idea's but you are super vague. I'm not sure if its because, you don't want to share, its too business like, I'm not sure, thats why I asked. No big deal.

Diver944,
I have seen a 3ltr with a stock sized 2.5 exhaust and it worked ok but it really cme to life with a 3" exhaust. I myself run a Cup replica 3" out of the turbo and 4" just past the firewall.
The problem I have is, I changed 3 things at once and have no data on just the exhaust change.

 

[evil 944t]

Jon, your exactly right. He runs 72's with his software/hardware change.

 

[Indi9xx]

Yes Paul, The exhaust on your 3.2 is going to be one of the biggest things holding it back... But dont rush into buying anything just yet

The other thing holding your car back is going to be the intake, throttle body, air filtration and the pre turbo setup as a whole.

 

[Indi9xx]

Dave, I never get upset, life is too short.

If anything, people often complain that if I was any more laid back I would be in a coma

If I am ever vague, its normally because I am not 100% happy that my findings are conclusive, proved and accepted... Often people shoot their mouth off about something they have done, and then do not come up with the goods on the dyno. I dont want to fall into that trap..

I always give my opinions away for free, but anything thats a current project I am working on at the moment, I tend to be itching to shout it to the world, but holding back in case later I find myself running up a dead end.

I so would love to say about everything we are working on, and every idea we are exploring.. but some of what we are working on will end up being dead ends... some of it is very much an odd ball idea which may pay off... but some of it will work out..

The other problem is that as soon as I anounce what I am working on, I usually get several people who pester me on a weekly basis on the progress because they want to buy it...

A good example of this is our 944 Quickshifts.. I have enquiries every day about them, I am happy with the design, everyone seems to want them, but we had one early one which seemed to fail on the other side of the world (litterally)... we are not sure if it failed due to incorrect installation, or due to a weakness, but until we get the failed component back, we do not want to go selling anymore in case we have to recall them all... Having said that, none of the rest have even come close to failure... But as you can imagine, this can make you into the paranoid person I am, who wants to make sure things are right before they are released onto the wide world.

 

[333pg333]

Paul, the original cup cars had a graduated 3" into 4". These are available through Lindsey racing but they're meant to have some pretty tight tolerances when fitting under the rear suspension.
Jon I assume that's me who your talking about re the quickshift kit. I'm only having it re-installed this weekend. Sorry for the delay in sending the parts back. I'll get it over to you soon. Oh and my guess is that it may have been an installation error initially.

 

[Indi9xx]

AHHhhh... 333pg333, I now understand the PG

I didnt realise your in here! Hi

No rush from your part, we just want to make sure its right before we let anyone else have one... the last thing we need is having to send out replacements to everyone if there was a fault in the design, even though so far we have had problems locating any issue.

However, in the meantime its given us a chance to analyse the design and come up with some minor improvements for the next production run. (just things like rubber dust covers for the spherical bearings to further protect them)

 

[eastendr]

Most standalone EMS can run multiple injectors. I've been doing this for nearly 20 years with the Pectel system running 8 grey injectors (think 8 72 lb injectors) on Cosworth engines. The ems can be programmed to control at which point the secondary injectors open. Think an analogy of a Weber twin choke like a 28/36.

The main two reasons why you would want to run twin injectors per sylinder are increased flow capacity and the ability to use effectively a different atomisation technique at high load. For the former you may mount the two injectors side by side, for the latter you have a completely different firing point (injector location).

The standard 944 inlet manifold is not suitable for either approach and using a single set of 72 lb injectors is sufficient for most modified 944 based engines, even large capacity unless running extremely high boost. Then other factors come in to play.

For years I've heard tuners say that this injector or that injector cannot be made to idle properly without their product X or Y, or otherwise that only they know how. I say Bollox in most cases. And have built the cars that have proved it. Even the standard 944 DME would idle correctly with big valve head, different cam etc on WUF before I went standalone. The Cosworth was in a much higher state of tume (542 BHP from 2 Litre) and was also fully UK MOT compliant with smooth idle.

The secret, sorry - there is no secret, is in the mapping. Over the years, I've met only a handful of people who can thoroughly map an engine, but a shed load who have built up a reputation (thoroughly undeserved) through others ignorance.

This is part of the reason why I am so pro-standalone. There are far too many weaknesses in most of the off the shelf chip solutions that I've seen when they're accurately monitored under real world conditions. Just modifying two points in the fuel or ignition map and smoothing between them, for instance, is not the answer and pure lazyness leading to flat spots.

In the UK a lot of us used a well known US based product that initially seemed very good, because it was much cheaper than the home grown solutions such as Superchips and AMD, and was indeed a bit better. Good bang for the buck. However it wasn't really that good at the end of the day and never reached the power levels promised on UK Dynos.

This has been a fairly common occurrance here where kits from the USA are distinctly lacking promised performance on the Dyno Dynamics dyno compared with the Mustangs and Dynojets of the USA. There are a lot of Dyno's in the UK that produce extremely flattering figures, but if it's the truth (or the consistently lowest reading dyno cell) that you seek then the DD has revealed a lot of truth about these modifications and kits. The fast wideband also shows up a lot of differences in the AFR curves as furnished. Perhaps the USA fuel is very different ?

Some of the guys in the USA are starting to send me graphs from DD dynos over there and the format I've adopted (AFR/PSI etc) so I'll be adding those graphs on to my site in the near future to get a base comparison between a USA tuned car on a DD (which seems consistent worldwide) and the same car run on a Mustang or Dynojet. Hopefull with this sort of data we can get a better global database of real 944 data to work from.

 

[Guest]

Twin injectors is more of an old-school solution to the large injector issue with ancient engine management. In this day and age, with the advanced aftermarket EFI the average consumer as available to them, there really is no point in running a twin injector setup, at least AFAIK. I have seen and known quite a few people with various types of cars in the Japanese tuner world that have pushed some insanely high horsepower levels with HUGE injectors and still managed to fine tune them to maintain reasonable drivability, partial throttle response, etc. It's all just a matter of tuning, which seems to be the hardest as well as the most vital thing to get right on any car.

Personally, I think people also tend to disbelieve certain dynos and automatically assume that the lower reading dynos are correct. Dynos like Dynojets, realistically, probably don't provide the most realistic street numbers as they are using a fixed "flywheel" weight to load the car and this doesn't quite provide realistic "loading" as you'd get from the street. Technically adjustable load bearing dynos like Mustang's, Dyna Packs, etc (and I thought the DD was as well) are superior for tuning and CAN provide more accurate numbers. One prevalent issue I've seen though is that some shops really don't have the best idea how to properly adjust the load, or in effect "tune" the dyno as there are quite a few more adjustable variable with an adjustable load bearing dyno. If these things aren't properly setup in the first place, the numbers can be just as "unrealistic" as Dynojets can be.

 

[333pg333]

So one hand we (the car owners who relies on others to do the work) are being discouraged to go standalone due to the expense related to the complexities of accurate tuning, yet then others are saying precisely the opposite. What's a poor schmuck non-diy'er to do?