Peter Empson
PCGB Member
ORIGINAL: Diver944
ORIGINAL: edh
I'm there on Sunday (Crashzone [] ) with Ross in Ben's old turbo
Hmmmm tempting [:-]
Lol! I'm thinking that too!
LIL has full boost and full revs
- Thread starter Diver944
- Start date
Lol! I'm thinking that too!
ORIGINAL: edh
I don't think you're far out Fen, but I'd hope to get lots more wear out of tyres & pads - maybe twice your suggestion, and disks especially!
I hope my new P zero C's last longer than 3 track days anyway
I can easily go through a tank & a half on a full day though - and that's without travel to & from the circuit.
To my mind, after fuel, general wear & tear is probably the biggest cost - and the hidden one. Cars take a lot of hammer on track days.
I've give it a bit more thought and while I still stand by the £500 overall figure I think you're right. Maybe you'd get more out of the brakes and tyres than I suggest (though a novice dipping a toe in the water on road tyres would only get 3 days out of them I'd suggest for sure), but Bedford was a cheapish day in terms of entry, I was light on the fuel costs and wear and tear is probably quite a bit more than I allowed - not so bad if you're in the trade, but if you're an IT contractor like many of us and you have to pay for it it mounts up.
DivineE
New member
ORIGINAL: edh
I'm there on Sunday (Crashzone [
I hope Ross is still happy with his purchase. I would love to go to a track day in the R32 some time and compare. The 944 brakes are infinitely better than the stoppers on the golf. The golf cooks the brakes even after 5-10mins of brisk road driving! It took 5-10mins of brisk driving for the EBC pads on the 944 to even get efficient working temp, I think it might be because the traction control in the golf, it still uses the brakes constantly on the bends even if you turn it off!!
Mind you the speed at which you can take the bends severely bends the laws of physics and really annoys me as I know at least I personally couldn't match it in the 944 ...and I hate hot hatches!
Ben
p.s. oh how I miss over steer! :-(
pauljmcnulty
Active member
Ben - I believe that if you go in fast enough and lift off mid-bend even the 4wd won't stop you oversteering......[
]
sawood12
New member
ORIGINAL: DivineE
ORIGINAL: edh
I'm there on Sunday (Crashzone [
I hope Ross is still happy with his purchase. I would love to go to a track day in the R32 some time and compare. The 944 brakes are infinitely better than the stoppers on the golf. The golf cooks the brakes even after 5-10mins of brisk road driving! It took 5-10mins of brisk driving for the EBC pads on the 944 to even get efficient working temp, I think it might be because the traction control in the golf, it still uses the brakes constantly on the bends even if you turn it off!!
Mind you the speed at which you can take the bends severely bends the laws of physics and really annoys me as I know at least I personally couldn't match it in the 944 ...and I hate hot hatches!
Ben
p.s. oh how I miss over steer! :-(
I think you're being a bit unfair on the 944 there. You are comparing a bang upto date modern car with nice new suspension to a 15 - 20 yr old car with old and saggy suspension which even when new was not as technically capable as the modern stuff on the R32. I'd like to try a back to back comparison with a KW'd and Weltmiestered 944. I think another advantage modern cars have is that the chassis are very stiff. The 944 chassis by comparison is a bit twisty. The R32 is an awsome car though, no doubt about it.
DivineE
New member
I agree. I'd take the 944 over the R32 any day of the week, it just annoys me how quick these modern hatches actually are! I used to think when I was in the 944 that if a hatch came up behind me trying to overtake I could laugh and then demonstrate the difference in speed between a real sports car an their new pride and joy. Unfortunately being on the other side of the fence has shown me that might not happen [
] it seems to make light work of the same cornering speeds that had my heart beating double time in the 944! I severly hope that a sorted 944 would trounce it so perhaps once my funds are replenished slightly I will have to meet you chaps at a trackday and test the theory.Regards,
Ben
eastendr
New member
Pictures from last Saturday's track day are now uploaded - navigation bars are still blank at this stage because of other uploads taking place.
http://www.cannell.co.uk/BA240207.htm
http://www.cannell.co.uk/BA240207.htm
Hilux
New member
So would I. I ragged mine around Bedford on Saturday with KW and W/meister set up.
All I can say is that the KW/W-M set up is brilliant BUT immediately shows up the deficiencies in your tyres. I have Falken (512`s??) I cant quite remember which. They are cheap and others experince of them, including Andrew S stated that they are a good compromise. I run 33F 33R on the road and found after the first 15 min session that the O/S tyres raised to 37 and the N/S to 35 not surprising on an anti clock work track
I dropped all the pressures to 32 and they all raised evenly to 34, dropped them to 29 and they raised to 32 and stayed there (until the end)
All tyres wore evenly. No outside edge feathering or marbles forming. I put this down to the set up and the 1.5 degree camber I agreed with Promax. The slight oversteer was enjoyable as you had to power the car through the corners BUT the rear tyres would not put the power down so huge enjoyable drifts were possible.
That and the fact it was overboosting (BP 97 octane was all I could find on the way there) plus a boost leak from the cycling valve meant that I couldnt `plant` the throttle for long. The boost when it came in was so vicious if I was off boost I couldnt accelerate too hard until it was on the straight and had to ease off every now and again when it overboosted so it would reset itself. (I`m sure it confused some cars but it also let the brakes cool) I found I only needed 3rd for the whole circuit (2nd for the two slow corners) and as the track dried I snatched 4th a couple of times but most of the time let the rev limiter sort it out as I approached the braking points.
I ran the car on its Promax settings (semi hard) to settle it in as I`m taking back to Promax soon for a re-check now its bedded in.
Hard settings and better tyres and I know it will be pretty spectacular (Andrew S creamed all the opposition on Mo30 with 17" slicks) including the GT3 RS`s. It is definitely undertyred at the back though. The front grips superbly `pulling` you around the corner but to power it in the corner albeit gently and on boost had the rears spinning evenly I`m pleased to say with no LSD tail wag as the weighting seemed very even. The loading on the O/s tyres I had before is hugely reduced, particularly on the front and the very stiff ARB made a massive difference IMHO although Ricks site seems to show a comparable lean in relation to other 944`s.
The front Falkens with the refurbished brakes were faultless, I was capable of outbraking most cars at the end of the pit straight having to ease off as the antilock started kicking in [&:] The performance friction pads were fantastic. A really hard stab of the pedal giving instant braking and enough as required at the end of the back straight to `unsettle` the car ready for the corners.
I can state that `Riverside` who posts on here with the other silver 951 was impressed with the lack of lean and said he was amazed at how flat it cornered.
Less rain and another track day and I`ll fit two wider tyres on the back and the suspension harder and report back. I really want to 17" with sticky tyres such as 888`s to get all the benefit I feel.
BTW I am waiting for a ride in Andrews car when he has his KW etc fitted [8D]
I have some footage showing your car through the esses & the back straight, I'll upload it if I get a chance. I followed sawood for a while too so I'll see if I can get the same corners for comparison. My mate James said mine (with well worn M030) looked pretty much the same as sawoods (ie visible body roll) when he was out with Neil & following me.
Sorry Neil, I don't think you were ever ahead of me while I was recording.
Neil Haughey
New member
Riverside,
I am sure I came past when you were on your out lap in the afternoon. I was following a yellow elise that I really wanted to "get". We were 3 abreast on the back straight and I put my arm up to say thanks for letting me pull back onto the racing line before the left hander. Maybe it was someone else with a silvery/goldy coloured turbo. Its a real shame because in that period for about 1/2 dozen laps I was really on it, and seriously enjoying myself.
I am sure I came past when you were on your out lap in the afternoon. I was following a yellow elise that I really wanted to "get". We were 3 abreast on the back straight and I put my arm up to say thanks for letting me pull back onto the racing line before the left hander. Maybe it was someone else with a silvery/goldy coloured turbo. Its a real shame because in that period for about 1/2 dozen laps I was really on it, and seriously enjoying myself.
You need stickier tyres then, Paul. No matter what I did with mine (on Dunlop SSRs) I couldn't get the back to move around on a dry track when they had warmed through and you're now running the same setup and a little less power.
Then again I guess maybe it could be down to suspension settings as I have to ask where Promax get the experience of KW settings from to develop the ones you're running? My settings came from the KW importer and backed up by the experience of several 968 KW users and as far as I am aware mine is the only other KW/Weltmeister combo car around.
Then again I guess maybe it could be down to suspension settings as I have to ask where Promax get the experience of KW settings from to develop the ones you're running? My settings came from the KW importer and backed up by the experience of several 968 KW users and as far as I am aware mine is the only other KW/Weltmeister combo car around.
Hilux's car looks virtually the same as mine from a distance, possibly it wasn't me that was following you. I wasn't recording all the time & I didn't record Des's pax session in my car (after lunch I think), I discovered afterwards that I'd left the camera on playback instead of record [8D]
My geometry was set up by Promax too & was neutral under power moving to understeer on a steady throttle which was spot on for the conditions and as Fen of his describes my back end was very well planted as the track dried out. I had a few 'moments' in the wet where the back end stepped out (where yours would have spun it's inside wheel I guess) after the hairpin & a couple of other driver-related issues but couldn't really fault the balance of the car. Not sure how much of an influence the LSD was on the understeer but there was never a point (wet or dry track) where I wished I didn't have one, I think you're right to consider fitting one to yours.
My geometry was set up by Promax too & was neutral under power moving to understeer on a steady throttle which was spot on for the conditions and as Fen of his describes my back end was very well planted as the track dried out. I had a few 'moments' in the wet where the back end stepped out (where yours would have spun it's inside wheel I guess) after the hairpin & a couple of other driver-related issues but couldn't really fault the balance of the car. Not sure how much of an influence the LSD was on the understeer but there was never a point (wet or dry track) where I wished I didn't have one, I think you're right to consider fitting one to yours.
I'm not suggesting Promax don't have experience of 944 geometry as clearly they have set up many cars, but I'm unsure where they have gaines experience with KW equipped cars and the specific setup of them, especially with Weltmeister ARBs, not in terms of geometry, but in terms of ride heights and bump/rebound and ARB settings.
When Paul described his on-road experience with the Promax settings soon after collecting the car a couple of things struck me; firstly that they had some settings he suggested they had developed by themselves and to be honest it didn't sound half as good as my car feels to me - he was talking oversteer tendencies even then which I simply don't have, but not at the expense of FWD levels of understeer. I'm just interested though, but Paul I'd really suggest you might consider the KW recommended settings and mid adjustment on both ARBs to see what that feels like - combined with more Porsche tolerance geometry if there is anything funky just now in your camber/castor/toe etc.
When Paul described his on-road experience with the Promax settings soon after collecting the car a couple of things struck me; firstly that they had some settings he suggested they had developed by themselves and to be honest it didn't sound half as good as my car feels to me - he was talking oversteer tendencies even then which I simply don't have, but not at the expense of FWD levels of understeer. I'm just interested though, but Paul I'd really suggest you might consider the KW recommended settings and mid adjustment on both ARBs to see what that feels like - combined with more Porsche tolerance geometry if there is anything funky just now in your camber/castor/toe etc.
Hilux
New member
Noted Fen
I assumed `wrongly` maybe that Promax had experience of KW set up as I thought they fitted yours? Weltmeister settings and KW settings are to be discussed when I take it back for re-setting but I believe they are factory with emphasis on slightly harder.
The rear traction I feel is a tyre issue. I dont think it was roll/lean/weight transfer issue as it was possible on the fast bends [8D] as well as the slow. On the other hand too stiff an ARB on the rear might unload the outside tyre more than you want? I`m no expert so I wait for opinion. Dunlop SSR`s?? I`m not familiar with them, are they sticky?
I assumed `wrongly` maybe that Promax had experience of KW set up as I thought they fitted yours? Weltmeister settings and KW settings are to be discussed when I take it back for re-setting but I believe they are factory with emphasis on slightly harder.
The rear traction I feel is a tyre issue. I dont think it was roll/lean/weight transfer issue as it was possible on the fast bends [8D] as well as the slow. On the other hand too stiff an ARB on the rear might unload the outside tyre more than you want? I`m no expert so I wait for opinion. Dunlop SSR`s?? I`m not familiar with them, are they sticky?
It is possible that there is a KW/Weltmeister car I don't know about, but I suspect it's unlikely as most people who would want the kit would have spent time on a forum to gather information to make the decision. To be honest the Weltmeister ARBs are one of those bits of kit (like the Performance Friciton pads for some time) that I think are superb, but my praise has not met with any take-up for a long time until you fitted them (because you drove my car possibly?) and I think it's possible that our cars are the only 2 in the UK with them.
I did get my Weltmeister bars from Promax, but supply only as shipping was cheaper through them and apart from one open day my car has never been and will never be near their premises. My KW came from Stuart at K300 and I got the settings from the 968UK website where they had been posted by the (then) KW agent for the UK. I also took advice from Big Dave who has been running KW for quite a bit longer than me. For the bars we set the adjustment accurately in the middle all round as a starting point and the car behaved itself so well the one time it was out in the dry that I didn't have the inclination to play with them.
Dunlop SSRs (Super Sport Race) were launched about the time I was looking for track tyres and were so aggressively marketed that they were half the price of competitors. I don't know that I would have bought them if they had been a comparable price and I have a feeling they are no longer available anyway. They look almost like a road tread but they started with 5mm rather than 8mm. They are also stiff sidewall and softer compound than road tyres. They melted in nicely at Oulton but didn't go off, although the car moved around on them subtly when they were hot. I was very happy with their performance, but it's my only track tyre experience and there may well be even better options out there.
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