LIL has full boost and full revs

[Diver944]

Yes I'm coming to Reading tomorrow.

Scott if I stamp on the pedal from a constant 2000rpm the boost starts to build straightaway. I'm now adjusted to 17psi and it reaches that level by 3200rpm. When I can figure out how to use the wideband logging and connect up the tachometer input I'll grab some data plots (and if I can't figure it out I might just go down to Weltmeister and do a before run so that Jon has some useful information for his base chips)

I always said that I'd stick with the AFM for the time being but have it properly mapped, but I'm hearing more and more how my intake is strangled by the AFM and am wondering if what I pay for a remap is just throwing money away when a MAF is in the plans anyway.

The car is now starting to get very fast, but is still unlike the power delivery of my old Turbo. Its still very smooth and there is no huge shove from the boost, just a consatnt increasing of urge all the time your foot is pressed to the floor.

I did another 1/4 mile G-Tech run with Ben in the car this afternoon and with another softish launch it measured 0-60 of 5.8 seconds, 1/4 mile of 14.2 and a terminal velocity of 110mph. It's useful to have a bit of confirmation that every time Jon gives me a few more psi and some extra revs that the times keep coming down. I can't wait to learn to drive LIL on track all over again - its going to be fun

 

[Indi9xx]

Hmmm... the question is... Hundreds of pounds on a MAF or a bit extra and run a map sensor (reasonably inexpensive) with a stand alone engine management system (a fair bit more expensive than a MAF) like Motec or Autronic that will give you sequential injection, distributor`cap`less ignition, and the ability to use an inexpensive boost solonoid as a boost controller (so you can sell your Greddy).. All told it need not cost you a fortune.

Having said that, I would be really interesting to see how far the Motronic could go performance wise.... A tricky call..

But there is more to come power wise, in particular, I have emailed you about the secret slight modification between the crossover and wastegate which should release some more ponies []

 

[Guest]

Well Done Jon & Paul, sounds like LIL is going to be some beast!
I get my Block back from Perfect Bore next week & hope to build the engine over Christmas & New Year
Already getting some nice flow figures out of the 2.7 head. Just hope the new Vitesse chips and software is as good as promised. Why do we all get these cars ready in winter?????
Paul are you going to do the Nurburgring this year? Anybody else up for it?

Cheers
Tom

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

I did another 1/4 mile G-Tech run with Ben in the car this afternoon and with another softish launch it measured 0-60 of 5.8 seconds, 1/4 mile of 14.2 and a terminal velocity of 110mph. It's useful to have a bit of confirmation that every time Jon gives me a few more psi and some extra revs that the times keep coming down. I can't wait to learn to drive LIL on track all over again - its going to be fun

Don't you just love it when you build something up in your head and it doesn't dissapoint! I love the way this car drives. If it could be said that the standard 250 car feels as fast in 2nd as it does in first. I can tell you now Pauls car feels as fast in 3rd as it does in 2nd.. if not slightly quicker!

The power delivery is lovely, where as my car feels like it hangs for a second when you put your foot down (almost a de-accleration before boost) Paul's car accelerates possitively and smoothly immediately and then gains momentum (quite rapily) as it hits boost!

Cant wait to see what more psi will do??!

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

Hmmm... the question is... Hundreds of pounds on a MAF or a bit extra and run a map sensor (reasonably inexpensive) with a stand alone engine management system (a fair bit more expensive than a MAF) like Motec or Autronic that will give you sequential injection, distributor`cap`less ignition, and the ability to use an inexpensive boost solonoid as a boost controller (so you can sell your Greddy).. All told it need not cost you a fortune.

Having said that, I would be really interesting to see how far the Motronic could go performance wise.... A tricky call..

But there is more to come power wise, in particular, I have emailed you about the secret slight modification between the crossover and wastegate which should release some more ponies []

Surely it's got to be MAP and stand alone to realise the full potential of all the extensive and expensive work carried out so far. It's so easy to spend other people's money!!

 

[Indi9xx]

ORIGINAL: eastendr
944's loose (incredibly consistently - measured across many vehicles) 15% through the transmission.

Hi Rick,

How did you come to this figure, is this from checking flywheel peak bhp and rear wheel bhp from dyno plots from the WRC dynodynamics rolling road plots your site has accumulated?

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: Diver944
The car is now starting to get very fast, but is still unlike the power delivery of my old Turbo. Its still very smooth and there is no huge shove from the boost, just a consatnt increasing of urge all the time your foot is pressed to the floor.

This sounds the same as the 968 turbo S I had the chance to ride in some years ago. Very flat and strong torque anywhere in the rev range but a less "spectacular" (read "peaky") delivery than on a 951 Cup. I believe yours must be more fun on 16" wheels than on 18", too []

Looking forward to reading how it will behave with more boost.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: tommo951

Paul are you going to do the Nurburgring this year? Anybody else up for it?

I think I might postpone this years Ring trip, purey on a value for money basis - I can do 2-3 trackdays here for the cost of one Ring trip.

I think I've now found the limit of the base chips Jon lent me for the running in period. I did some more 17psi tests on the way to Reading and they are pretty close to a ratio of 13:1 so I've turned it back down to 15psi which is a nice 12:1

I've installed and tested the Wideband software and it is really easy to get a proper plot, but now I just need to connect in the RPM connector so I can correlate it through the rev range. The manual tells me to connect it to the 'switch non-power' side of the coil but Simon pointed out there is a pin in the DME that will help, and as the DME is about a foot from the wideband it will be a lot easier than running a wire to the coil.

I've now exchanged a few emails with John at Vitesse and I think I have nearly made my mind up to try one of his MAF kits. Once I have proved to myself I can do proper and accurate logging with the Wideband Commander then I'll be hapy that I can test out his kit and see straight away if its working well or not.

 

[eastendr]

Good choice, if Tony's VR MAF is anything to go by ....

 

[Indi9xx]

Sounds like a plan! The VR MAF seems like a really good product and our MAF isnt going to be finished for another few months.

I was amazed the K-H chips had managed to cope and were flexible enough to get you this far, I guess they had to have a limitation eventually... But then again...If its just the last 2 psi where they are lacking, there is something else that can be tweaked to get the fueling up for that range.

How are you finding the wideband kit? once you start looking through the instructions there is a massive amount that it can do compared with other similar products including the data logging, programable switchable outputs and various inputs... I am not sure but I think your one can also do TPS or boost as well as rpm logging along side the AFR, I will look into that for you.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

But then again...If its just the last 2 psi where they are lacking, there is something else that can be tweaked to get the fueling up for that range.

I am still on an original 2.5 bar FPR if I remember correctly so we could probably go higher with my 3.0 bar refitted (though it could mess up off boost fuelling)

The wideband has two extra analogue inputs for +/- 5volt inputs. One of these is already labelled up as Throttle position (but it can be edited) the other is blank. I was hoping it could measure boost, and indeed their website suggests a simple GM MAP sensor for $65 will provide a suitable input. I don't know if a similar sensor is available over here or the best place to fit it, but it sounds like a plan.

When I get a bit of time (maybe between Christmas ad New Year) I'll log all the different readings I've been getting manually so far, ie

4k rpm, no boost
4k rpm, 10psi
5k rpm, 10psi
5k rpm, 12 psi
6k rpm, 12psi
6k rpm, 15psi
6k rpm, 17psi

Anyone bored yet []

 

[Guest]

Delighted to see your car is up and running paul, It'll be a beast when you get it tuned right...ENJOY!!!!

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

ORIGINAL: tommo951

Paul are you going to do the Nurburgring this year? Anybody else up for it?

I
I've now exchanged a few emails with John at Vitesse and I think I have nearly made my mind up to try one of his MAF kits. Once I have proved to myself I can do proper and accurate logging with the Wideband Commander then I'll be hapy that I can test out his kit and see straight away if its working well or not.

John @ Vitesse is excellent to deal with, I have sent him datalogs for analysis from the PB and my wideband and he has been able to offer tweeks. Now that I going 3.0 litre I am getting the new software and the upgrade chips at a reasonable upgrade charge. Some people would want to sell the chips and software at full price
You will be ok with John. He has some quite exciting projects in the wings too, water injection, knock control etc

 

[MarkK]

Any LIL news!!??

 

[Diver944]

Nope no new news yet. I'm hoping to fit the EBC on Saturday and then I will have a flat boost level to the redline. Then I will do some proper wideband logs and post you all some pretty graphs to look at [8|]

I have today cancelled my rolling road remap of the AFM and I'll order the Vitesse MAF in the new year, but before I install it I will get a Weltmeister dyno test on the base chips just so that Jon has some useful information and also so that I get a base power level of the 3.2 engine running on an AFM

 

[Indi9xx]

LIL is currently about 40 feet away from me in the workshop!

Paul had a bit of a scare with her, as he could hear a funny noise from the front of the engine. Turned out that it was just the alternator belt was in the process of failing and has been replaced with a new one, along with a spare we are supplying Paul with as insurance against another problem.

On the other hand, its been a bonus because it has given me a chance to drive our mad scientist creation with now 17 psi of boost which creeps down to 16 psi at 6000 rpm due to the MBC (being changed for an EBC over xmas).

MY GOD I AM IN LOVE WITH THIS ENGINE!

Off boost in traffic it has more torque than a 944 S2.... Which is quite a thing, even though LIL has something like 225cc more than an S2 of capacity as this engine is running 8.0:1 compression, rather than more like 10:1 of the S2.... this makes her effortless to drive and as smooth as silk.

In 1st gear, she has enough torque in cold but dry road conditions to light up the rear tyres right from idle if your too heavy with your right foot... Which caught me off guard.

again, if your not carefull, she easily spins the back wheels on demand in second gear.... any rpm over 2000 rpm, if you push on the gas she looses all traction...

In third gear, if you go from 2nd in hard accelloration into 3rd... again, she looses traction... you could probably loose it on demand, but having seen how it behaved in 1st and second gear I was being warey of her.

In 3rd to 4th gear changes, at first I thought the clutch was slipping for a moment... as again she lost grip.... 4th to 5th gear change had a chirp from the rear tyres, which had me sure than again the wheels had spun up.

This is all with our running in chip... I would expect a whole heap of extra power from the custom map she will be getting in January... Most importantly, at the moment she is running an ignition map designed for a 100 mm bore instead of a 108mm bore, therefore it will require a little more ignition advance, which once mapped will transform her even further.

She is a beast, but a smooth beast.

 

[chrisdenton]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx


In 1st gear, she has enough torque in cold but dry road conditions to light up the rear tyres right from idle if your too heavy with your right foot... Which caught me off guard.

again, if your not carefull, she easily spins the back wheels on demand in second gear.... any rpm over 2000 rpm, if you push on the gas she looses all traction...

In third gear, if you go from 2nd in hard accelloration into 3rd... again, she looses traction... you could probably loose it on demand, but having seen how it behaved in 1st and second gear I was being warey of her.

In 3rd to 4th gear changes, at first I thought the clutch was slipping for a moment... as again she lost grip.... 4th to 5th gear change had a chirp from the rear tyres, which had me sure than again the wheels had spun up.

Sounds to me like your gonna need some more grip.... Have you thought about getting some P6000's [][][]

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: tommo951

ORIGINAL: Diver944

ORIGINAL: tommo951

Paul are you going to do the Nurburgring this year? Anybody else up for it?

I
I've now exchanged a few emails with John at Vitesse and I think I have nearly made my mind up to try one of his MAF kits. Once I have proved to myself I can do proper and accurate logging with the Wideband Commander then I'll be hapy that I can test out his kit and see straight away if its working well or not.

John @ Vitesse is excellent to deal with, I have sent him datalogs for analysis from the PB and my wideband and he has been able to offer tweeks. Now that I going 3.0 litre I am getting the new software and the upgrade chips at a reasonable upgrade charge. Some people would want to sell the chips and software at full price
You will be ok with John. He has some quite exciting projects in the wings too, water injection, knock control etc

How are you going up to the 3.0ltr? Are you going to sleeve your block or buying a 3.0 block and going from there?

 

[Diver944]

I've had a morning of frustration, satisfaction and then further frustration with LIL.

I decided to get the Wideband connected to the coil today so I can plot my air fuel ratio by RPM. Jon gave me a nice simple diagram showing that all I have to do is connect a wire to pin #1 on the DME plug. as my wideband is on the underside of the glovebox, this would be ideal as the DME is about a foot away - hurrah!

After an hour of pfaffing around in the footwell I didn't have the courage to break open the uge DME plug and start splicing around so I gave up in a huff []. After a cup of tea I decided to go with the original plan of running a wire from the coil all round the engine bay and then into the wideband under the glovebox. 30 minutes later and the job was done and I can get the software running on my laptop on the passenger seat whilst it plots me some nice graphs - hurrah []

So I went out to get some nice data, but the roads are just too damned moist to get anything meaningful. Even in 5th gear rolling on from 2000rpm I just light up the rear wheels once it approaches 3000rpm [] I couldn't work out what that noise was and why the revs were at 5000rpm but I was still at legal speeds [&:] the funny noise was them tyres spinning - how frustrating.

The good news is that all my previous reports have been slightly understating the true facts because last week we found a sizeable exhaust leak from the pipe leading from the crossover to the wastegate. Jon has fitted a new olive and the seal is now perfect which is bringing the boost on even earlier and staying for longer (even with the MBC). Once I can measure it properly I think it means we will be a little leaner but Jon has now given me a 3 bar FPR so maybe we can address that until the Vitesse MAF is fitted. My mind can't fathom what the car will be like then as it's already promising so much and making me smile every day []

 

[sawood12]

Bloomin' nora Paul, this thing just sounds more and more awsome every time you post something new about it!! Given you are really limited to 165 rear tyres, which I suspect still wont be enough to contain the immense power and torque you've got now let alone once you've got her set up properly, this is another reason to consider stand alone EMS - traction control!!

Anyway, I look forward to your next running report - 3pm on Christmas day would be good to give me an excuse to get out of the Queens speach!