LIL has full boost and full revs
- Thread starter Diver944
- Start date
Indi9xx
New member
Patrick,
A few predictions and you can quote me on these.
"If LIL gets a MAF and a 3.2 chip, and runs 18 psi, she will gain BHP without loosing torque"
Next quote/prediction.
"If LIL then gets a less restrictive turbo back exhaust... Again, she will gain BHP without loosing any torque"
And lastly...
"If LIL gets a improved intake manifold and intercooler hard pipes, she again will make even more BHP without loosing torque as long as the manifold isnt a bad design"
The engine is currently making as much torque as it is, because its been designed and built to produce torque, while at the same time having a capacity to make BHP as a result if restrictions are removed without harming toque.
There is even a chance that with the restrictions removed, it will make even more torque and perhaps even making it even earlier in the rpm range.
There are even several trade secrets that we keep to ourselves about how we install parts and modify cars, which boil down to attention to detail, and these details are why you will notice that most of the cars on the league table with 9XX involved in the tuning process have good torque...
Even Mark Daltons car "TBO" when it was top of the league table for a while, had a good torque curve.
The reason for this is that we do not concentrate on trying to be top of the league table or producing a headline grabbing "XXX BHP with our XYZ part" product... We try to always make gains in a way that will not hurt torque or driveability... as we understand that most of our customers cars are a road car first and a track toy second.
I believe that if the restrictions are removed from LIL, and the car has mapping dedicated to a 3.2 engine, the torque curve will flatten out, it will rise a little and it may even happen a little sooner... not only this, but I believe that there is a good chance that not only will she end up with more torque and a wider torque curve, the peak BHP will almost equal torque or even pass it.
There... I said it
A few predictions and you can quote me on these.
"If LIL gets a MAF and a 3.2 chip, and runs 18 psi, she will gain BHP without loosing torque"
Next quote/prediction.
"If LIL then gets a less restrictive turbo back exhaust... Again, she will gain BHP without loosing any torque"
And lastly...
"If LIL gets a improved intake manifold and intercooler hard pipes, she again will make even more BHP without loosing torque as long as the manifold isnt a bad design"
The engine is currently making as much torque as it is, because its been designed and built to produce torque, while at the same time having a capacity to make BHP as a result if restrictions are removed without harming toque.
There is even a chance that with the restrictions removed, it will make even more torque and perhaps even making it even earlier in the rpm range.
There are even several trade secrets that we keep to ourselves about how we install parts and modify cars, which boil down to attention to detail, and these details are why you will notice that most of the cars on the league table with 9XX involved in the tuning process have good torque...
Even Mark Daltons car "TBO" when it was top of the league table for a while, had a good torque curve.
The reason for this is that we do not concentrate on trying to be top of the league table or producing a headline grabbing "XXX BHP with our XYZ part" product... We try to always make gains in a way that will not hurt torque or driveability... as we understand that most of our customers cars are a road car first and a track toy second.
I believe that if the restrictions are removed from LIL, and the car has mapping dedicated to a 3.2 engine, the torque curve will flatten out, it will rise a little and it may even happen a little sooner... not only this, but I believe that there is a good chance that not only will she end up with more torque and a wider torque curve, the peak BHP will almost equal torque or even pass it.
There... I said it
Hilux
New member
there is a good chance that not only will she end up with more torque and a wider torque curve, the peak BHP will almost equal torque or even pass it.
There... I said it
[8D][8D][8D]
Amazing, well done to Paul for pioneering and also to Jon who is clearly a consummate engineer and 944 leading light. Fascinating thread I`ve been following closely.
At these (potential) levels of torque and power is the clutch/gearbox good for it and a brake upgrade required?
Good and fair answer Jon. I wasn't asking for any trade secrets either as I know this is like intellectual property so unless one pays for it, one is left with assumptions. I am interested why you chose not to go with the Darton Mid setup? If you would care to comment or email me if you like. I look forward to Lil's progress!
Diver944
Active member
That's one of the reasons that I don't think you'll ever see a different intake manifold or a large bore exhaust on LIL. I think that once the restrictive AFM is replaced then you'll see all the power and torque that I'll ever need and I certainly don't want to go down the road of rebuilding the gearbox as well [
]
Hilux
New member
I`m inclined to agree.
400 ish torquey reliable bhp is plenty to frighten anyone and yet you stay within the safety envelope of the engine which I`m sure was a substantial investment.
A mates got a circa 1000bhp twin custom turbod LS2 engined cobra (it broke one RR and wouldnt stay on another [&:]) Frighteningly quick 60-100 in about 3 secs and I will NEVER get back in it EVER. He drives it on 1/4 throttle max as it lights the wheels up anywhere at anytime at any speed
Your 944 would be all over it easily as its got useable power. Whats the point of being on road or track and being frightened to nail the throttle.
Diver944
Active member
That sounds truly scarey [
] I just became incredibly geeky and checked the time stamps on some of the datalogs I have from my Wideband Commander and it showed that mine is doing 60-100mph in 5.91 secs, so twice as slow as the Cobra. Interestingly it did EXACTLY the same time in 3rd gear (3900rpm-6500rpm) as it did in 4th gear (2900rpm-4800rpm).
Stay tuned for more geekish behaviour [
]
Indi9xx
New member
The thing that hurts the gearbox isnt the power level but the rate of change in power level during the process of accelloration. In other words how the power/torque ramps up.
Therefore opening up restrictions that limit power after the initial torque ramp will not hurt the gearbox any more.
If the removal of the restriction increases torque, the wonderful thing is you can wind down the boost level to match your requirements, which means you would have just as much power, but at a lower boost level, which will be kinder to your engine, because as mad as it may sound, the engine will be not working as hard to produce the same amount of power.
In other words, if LIL could make the same peak torque figure as she has now, but at a lower boost level, but with a higher and later peak BHP, she would be quicker, potentially less harmfull to the engine and the transmission.
We have had many chats with various people about Paul's car over the last couple of weeks. In particular regarding the fact that traction is becomming a problem... Much like the discussion in here, its been along the lines that there is a worry that on the one hand she makes more torque than can be used in some conditions, but that at the current setup the engine is being put under much more stress than it would if some of the restrictions were removed.... And it is a real worry.
The amazing thing is... I never thought I would be having discussions verbally or in a forum, where the subject isnt....
"how do I make some more power",
but instead its....
"OMG, we have too much torque"
and...
"Oh no... if the engine continues to be strangled, it could potentially be damaged... But if we remove the restrictions it will make more power, which we don't want (!)"
I also never thought I would ever say... "Lets free up the restictions and DROP the boost as this would make a better faster car!"....
My whole view of 944 turbo's has just been turned on its head... its crazy!
Therefore opening up restrictions that limit power after the initial torque ramp will not hurt the gearbox any more.
If the removal of the restriction increases torque, the wonderful thing is you can wind down the boost level to match your requirements, which means you would have just as much power, but at a lower boost level, which will be kinder to your engine, because as mad as it may sound, the engine will be not working as hard to produce the same amount of power.
In other words, if LIL could make the same peak torque figure as she has now, but at a lower boost level, but with a higher and later peak BHP, she would be quicker, potentially less harmfull to the engine and the transmission.
We have had many chats with various people about Paul's car over the last couple of weeks. In particular regarding the fact that traction is becomming a problem... Much like the discussion in here, its been along the lines that there is a worry that on the one hand she makes more torque than can be used in some conditions, but that at the current setup the engine is being put under much more stress than it would if some of the restrictions were removed.... And it is a real worry.
The amazing thing is... I never thought I would be having discussions verbally or in a forum, where the subject isnt....
"how do I make some more power",
but instead its....
"OMG, we have too much torque"
and...
"Oh no... if the engine continues to be strangled, it could potentially be damaged... But if we remove the restrictions it will make more power, which we don't want (!)"
I also never thought I would ever say... "Lets free up the restictions and DROP the boost as this would make a better faster car!"....
My whole view of 944 turbo's has just been turned on its head... its crazy!
Diver944
Active member
ORIGINAL: AndrewS
That's a very impressive torque figure (450lbft - wow!). Look forward to seeing the car in action at Bedford
Thanks Andrew, it will be good to get out on track again with you again. I hope you'll be bringing the 307 as it gives us all a chance [
] If you drive anything Porsche badged then no doubt you'll be lapping me at least once every session again [&o]I did a quick conversion of my 450lbft and it comes out at 610Nm which is virtually identical to the current 997 Turbo's torque of 620Nm [
] (admittedly the 997 develops it at only 2000rpm and holds it to 5000rpm) not forgetting it can overboost momentarily to 680Nm
sawood12
New member
I believe the 968 gearbox is much stronger than the 944 turbo gearbox and apart from a modification to the speedometer pick-up is practically retrofittable. There was also the option (which was probably a rare option) of a Torsen diff which would definately help with the traction issues.
Diver944
Active member
I don't think I've had a tank of normal driving yet because in the early days I was doing lots of variable speed with lots of gearchanges to run the engine in and recently I've been doing a lot of full throttle testing while we got the boost level and AFRs correct.
The first two tanks coming home from Jons when I had no boost, 4krpm limit and lots of variable speeds was circa 350 miles for the tank. I think a normal cruise will be close to 400 miles per tank and town driving or lots of boost will see it drop to 200 miles, so just a bit worse than my old 2.5
The first two tanks coming home from Jons when I had no boost, 4krpm limit and lots of variable speeds was circa 350 miles for the tank. I think a normal cruise will be close to 400 miles per tank and town driving or lots of boost will see it drop to 200 miles, so just a bit worse than my old 2.5
sawood12
New member
That's what I had believed previously but there has been alot of chat about this subject recently on Rennlist where there has been a few people who have actually fitted a 968 box and apart from the speedo mod it appears to be a straight replacement retaining the 944 fuel tank and torque tube. You also need the 968 drive shaft on one side (can't remember which side) as it is a different length, but the other driveshaft is carried over from the 944 box. However some feedback from Rennlist is that the 968 Torsen diff is fine for fast road use but not for track use. It has a slicker gearchange as well due to the use of roller/ball bearings instead of solid bushes in the internal gearchange mechanism. However it is all academic as 968 gearboxes are even more rare than a decent 944turbo LSD/oil cooler box.
Yes that's right you retain the 944 fuel tank. My friend has done the conversion and he swears by it.
Jon, I absolutely concur with you regards opening up restrictions as to lessen the boost and run a more efficient, but less stressed engine. I am going down this road myself so in about 4-6 weeks when everything is installed I can give my impressions. The added advantage is that if you want to run it on a higher boost for race days you can, providing your timing and air / fuel is up to it. Having an alternative map for race fuel can be easily arranged too. I am also concerned about the traction issue even though I race on 18 x 285's on the rear, it may not be enough? This is going to be a fun year!!!
Jon, I absolutely concur with you regards opening up restrictions as to lessen the boost and run a more efficient, but less stressed engine. I am going down this road myself so in about 4-6 weeks when everything is installed I can give my impressions. The added advantage is that if you want to run it on a higher boost for race days you can, providing your timing and air / fuel is up to it. Having an alternative map for race fuel can be easily arranged too. I am also concerned about the traction issue even though I race on 18 x 285's on the rear, it may not be enough? This is going to be a fun year!!!
eastendr
New member
The league table's been updated now.
There's also a video of the power run here http://www.cannell.co.uk/Video/LIL%20WRC0107.mpg
Rick
There's also a video of the power run here http://www.cannell.co.uk/Video/LIL%20WRC0107.mpg
Rick
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