It's RWD with a bit of poke and no driver aids - people coming from FWD or cars with stabilty control will always bin them regardless of how benign they are. The 944 is a pussycat to get sideways at any speed BUT you have to expect it and not do anything really stupid like snap the throttle shut or start spinning the steering wheel like you're on a Playstation. That goes for any and every real car on the planet though; nothing will let you get away with snapping shut the throttle when it has stepped out unless it has electronics to save you.
Nearly bit me
- Thread starter xenon
- Start date
Forget all the talk on this subject, I think this really what it's all about[
]. Driving in any car like that on a public road when you are not familiar enough with it, or not concentrating, is daft. People that drive like they're playing a game with other drivers when going at speed or otherwise, should be taken off the road and shot[].
pauljmcnulty
Active member
This whole thread is cracking me up....[&:]
Try a daily driver of high-torque RWD Toyota van on "economy" tyres, and then at the weekends drive a 944 on P6000s all round....[]
I was asked recently by SWMBO "why do you always do that slidey thing on every corner". I fall back to the "because it's there" defence! []
Seriously, there are scary moments to be had in any car. It's how they behave within your own sensible limits that counts. The 944 is a very forgiving car, but it will still spit you off the road if you exceed it's limits. I do wonder how much of this is down to a generation of drivers raised on FWD hatchbacks who are surprised by the handling of a RWD car?
Try a daily driver of high-torque RWD Toyota van on "economy" tyres, and then at the weekends drive a 944 on P6000s all round....[
]I was asked recently by SWMBO "why do you always do that slidey thing on every corner". I fall back to the "because it's there" defence! [
]Seriously, there are scary moments to be had in any car. It's how they behave within your own sensible limits that counts. The 944 is a very forgiving car, but it will still spit you off the road if you exceed it's limits. I do wonder how much of this is down to a generation of drivers raised on FWD hatchbacks who are surprised by the handling of a RWD car?
sawood12
New member
You're right Paul. My dad's got plenty of stories about wagging tails in his MG's and Dolomite Sprint with cross-ply tyres. Sounds like cars of that era spent about 50% of their time sideways. For me the 944 is the first RWD car i've ever owned and I was so surprised had how you have to drive the cars differently. It seems very counter intuitive to not lift your foot off the thottle when the tail does break loose. FWD cars have such benign handling you really have to be doing something silly to come a cropper. With a RWD car a relatively 'safe' situation can very quickly turn into a very unsafe situation if you don't do the right thing with the throttle and steering wheel.
I had a 'moment' within the first 3 months of my ownership and through luck rather than skill I managed to get away unscathed. It was a valuable lesson though. A guy a few doors down who got a Lux a few months after I got mine ended up in a ditch. You definately have to think about what you're doing.
I had a 'moment' within the first 3 months of my ownership and through luck rather than skill I managed to get away unscathed. It was a valuable lesson though. A guy a few doors down who got a Lux a few months after I got mine ended up in a ditch. You definately have to think about what you're doing.
Neil Haughey
New member
ORIGINAL: pse_SC
Forget all the talk on this subject, I think this really what it's all about[
This is exactly the point I was making early on in this thread, explore the handling on a track. For me the biggest problem with the 44/68 series cars is that the layout keeps convincing ppl that there is loads of grip and handling in reserve, you reach a greasy corner the back end spits out 5ft and then you spin off and bin the thing. Its not like a torsion bar 911 where anyone sensible understands that you must have 100% concentration all the time.
This talk about not understanding rwd cars is complete and utter drivel. Classic rwd cars with a front mid engine and just a diff in the back can be drifted around easilly. The 44 has a lot of mass at both ends which makes it very stable but also means that when it does go (and I mean really go not the gentle understeer which many confuse with the car drifting) it goes a very long way very quickly and you need to react instantly with exactly the right amount of opposite lock and throttle adjustment to avoid a tank slapper or a crash.
Sorry Neil; I completely disagree. The 944 is not a nasty chassis waiting to bite you and if you have RWD experience it's safe. You do need to realise what it will do at the limit but it won't do anything unique but it is RWD behaviour.
Someone said it would be interesting to hear how many people on here have had an incident in a 944 due to unexpectedly going sideways - it would, but I'd be more interested to hear what those people had driven before the 944.
I've had mine break away on me when I haven't necessarily felt I was pushing it, but no more often and to no bigger an angle of slide than my Impreza did several times. Sure it has a bit of weight in the back, but while it might step out a little bit further it also damps (as in smoothes) your efforts to catch it and it's less likely to come back in line with a snap that you don't have time to steer out of - it's that snap back into line and the ensuing tankslapper that spits people off the road in my experience.
I was brought up on RWD; Escorts, Mantas etc. which we used to play at drifting on an old airfield and bar one night on wet cobbles in a Mk1 Escort I have always caught it - coincidence? I don't think so, but it's RWD not 944 experience that matters as the '44 just behaves like a RWD car. At 39 I'm probably on the ragged edge age-wise of people who started with RWD as my mates and I sought out these cars rather than buy the new breed of FWD stuff like Astras, Fiestas etc. Anyone else the wrong side of 40 crashed a 944?
BTW Scott when a FWD brakes away at the back you should open the throttle - I find that far less intuitive than feathering the throttle as you should in RWD. Years ago I did once come right out of the throttle in a 3.2 Carrera when it broke away and the ensuing tank-slapper is a lesson I will never forget. Luckily it was on track and the guy behind was experienced enough for both of us, though I didn't go right round and I didn't get near the grass so I think I probably only used 2 lanes width at most.
Again Neil I disagree: The 3.2 Carrera is another car that gets an undeserved reputation, but then I owned one rather than just read about them and believed the hype. I don't consider myself to have the ability of Fangio yet I was having my 3.2 sideways deliberately on the way home with it (OK that was the end of an 8 hour drive and it was the middle of the night by then so not as loony as you may think). That said even the late Michael Ticehurst who sold me the car told me no mere mortal would ever intentionally get a 911 sideways on the road so the misconception is widespread and in places it really shouldn't be.
The bottom line is that in any car when you push on you may find one end or the other breaks away. In a 944 that will usually be the back (and if it's the front and you back off too much the back will ususally kick out a little when the front bites). You need to know that to be able to catch it, but there's nothing magic about it and if you have experience to know what a RWD breakaway feels like - from any RWD car - then you'll probably be fine.
Someone said it would be interesting to hear how many people on here have had an incident in a 944 due to unexpectedly going sideways - it would, but I'd be more interested to hear what those people had driven before the 944.
I've had mine break away on me when I haven't necessarily felt I was pushing it, but no more often and to no bigger an angle of slide than my Impreza did several times. Sure it has a bit of weight in the back, but while it might step out a little bit further it also damps (as in smoothes) your efforts to catch it and it's less likely to come back in line with a snap that you don't have time to steer out of - it's that snap back into line and the ensuing tankslapper that spits people off the road in my experience.
I was brought up on RWD; Escorts, Mantas etc. which we used to play at drifting on an old airfield and bar one night on wet cobbles in a Mk1 Escort I have always caught it - coincidence? I don't think so, but it's RWD not 944 experience that matters as the '44 just behaves like a RWD car. At 39 I'm probably on the ragged edge age-wise of people who started with RWD as my mates and I sought out these cars rather than buy the new breed of FWD stuff like Astras, Fiestas etc. Anyone else the wrong side of 40 crashed a 944?
BTW Scott when a FWD brakes away at the back you should open the throttle - I find that far less intuitive than feathering the throttle as you should in RWD. Years ago I did once come right out of the throttle in a 3.2 Carrera when it broke away and the ensuing tank-slapper is a lesson I will never forget. Luckily it was on track and the guy behind was experienced enough for both of us, though I didn't go right round and I didn't get near the grass so I think I probably only used 2 lanes width at most.
Again Neil I disagree: The 3.2 Carrera is another car that gets an undeserved reputation, but then I owned one rather than just read about them and believed the hype. I don't consider myself to have the ability of Fangio yet I was having my 3.2 sideways deliberately on the way home with it (OK that was the end of an 8 hour drive and it was the middle of the night by then so not as loony as you may think). That said even the late Michael Ticehurst who sold me the car told me no mere mortal would ever intentionally get a 911 sideways on the road so the misconception is widespread and in places it really shouldn't be.
The bottom line is that in any car when you push on you may find one end or the other breaks away. In a 944 that will usually be the back (and if it's the front and you back off too much the back will ususally kick out a little when the front bites). You need to know that to be able to catch it, but there's nothing magic about it and if you have experience to know what a RWD breakaway feels like - from any RWD car - then you'll probably be fine.
xenon
New member
ORIGINAL: pse_SC
Forget all the talk on this subject, I think this really what it's all about[
I hope that comment is not aimed at me. I'm the wrong side of 40 too and bought up on live-axle rwd, leaf springs and all that. I wish I'd never started this now.
Hilux
New member
Completely agree
Completely disagree,
The equal weight bias means that it is NOT tail happy unless provoked. The equal weight bias will also tend to make it spin rather than go off backwards like a 911 or frontwards like a modern hatch.
In my book FWD lift off oversteer is MUCH harder to catch than a rear wheel drift and v v difficult to recover from as the power down needed is normally too much for the tyres and simply exacerbates the symptom.
BTW if you want to know how to control a rear end then drive a Toyota Hilux for 20 years with great big tyres and no weight in the back [
]
steve 944t
Member
I recently spent a day at North Weald airfield with Andy Walsh from carlimits.com. I can thoroughly recommend this to anyone who wants to experiment with their car's limits and find out what happens when you go beyond them. The real eye-opener for me was how little correction is required to bring the car back in line from a major slide. I spent the first hour or so wrestling manfully with the steering wheel, resulting in ever-increasing tankslappers. Getting the opposite lock on to correct an initial slide is easy, taking the lock off at the right time is the important bit! After some coaching from Andy I was taking the same corner faster, steering with just one finger on the wheel, using gentle inputs to which the car responded instantly. Even Andy was impressed at how responsive the car is. Of course, if you use the wrong inputs the car will react just as quickly - hence the benefit of coaching and practice.
As an indication of how good the 944 chassis is, there were 2 Ariel Atoms on the day with me. The fastest I could enter the 90 degree bend without spinning was a fraction under 80mph. The Atoms could manage no more than 85mph (but were seriously fast in a straight line!) Perhaps I could have got even closer to their entry speed if I had played around with the KW settings, but that wasnt the aim of the day.
As an indication of how good the 944 chassis is, there were 2 Ariel Atoms on the day with me. The fastest I could enter the 90 degree bend without spinning was a fraction under 80mph. The Atoms could manage no more than 85mph (but were seriously fast in a straight line!) Perhaps I could have got even closer to their entry speed if I had played around with the KW settings, but that wasnt the aim of the day.
Neil Haughey
New member
Sometimes it is like we are aguing on our own on this forum! Maybe we have got to know everyone to well. I actually agree with what you say above and that is the blooming point. Everyone keeps going around saying that torsion bar 911's have evil handling which is not fair, likewise I have felt for a long time it is dangerous to go around saying the 944 has totally benign idiot proof handling because it doesn't.
This has been my point right from the start (didn't make it very well though). I have had a couple of big unexpected moments in my 70K miles behind the wheel of an S2, and luckily I have got away with it. The first was a 70mph tank slapper the second I did better and drove out of at maybe 60 mph, in both cases I was lucky to have enough tarmac to use up. Like I said low speed is different because you just instinctively modulate the throttle and don't even worry about (once you know what to expect).
BTW it is true about FWD cars being much more tricky but IMHO this only happens if you have something like my old 900 putting 280 lb/ft through a pair of punny 15" front wheels, the modern cars with huge grip, better chassis etc don't seem to have those traits at all.
Neil Haughey
New member
Great and interesting read but how fast you can go through a corner isn't really the issue. Like I have said about 4 million times already on this thread, do like Steve and explore the limits on the track don't go honking it on public roads when you haven't got a lot of experience in the car thinking "I don't need to worry everyone keeps telling me the 944 chassis is benign so I will be ok".
Neil Haughey
New member
Again this is entirely the point. Because the 944 doesn't spend half its life sideways when it does properly go it catches ppl out. Not having an LSD is also an issue.
xenon
New member
No - as others have said, it's a predictable car to drive *BUT* you have to bear in mind that it has 211 bhp, lots of torque, an LSD (in some cases) and no driver aids. If you don't use the throttle judiciously (or be prepared to control the slide) you can get into trouble.
It just deserves respect, that's all. Enjoy and, as others have said, get used to the car's handling in a safe environment off the public road.
It just deserves respect, that's all. Enjoy and, as others have said, get used to the car's handling in a safe environment off the public road.
Neil, I agree with what you say in those last 3 posts I guess. I do still think that the 944 is as friendly a chassis as any other RWD car.
Ultimately I did learn the basics of opposite lockery off road (and to be honest I don't often play with it on the road though I usually do when I'm on track given the opportunity, which I bet applies to many of us). I think we're in violent agreement is that you need to have an understanding of what a RWD car will do when it breaches the limits of adhesion and any RWD car will behave in a way that can bite you if you don't know what it is going to do and react appropriately.
On that basis I accept it does no good for people coming from a FWD or ESP equipped car to believe the 944 can defy the laws of physics - it's a good and balanced chassis but it has limits and you need to both realise that and explore them off road for the first time if you haven't got a lot of RWD "seat time" behind you.
Ultimately I did learn the basics of opposite lockery off road (and to be honest I don't often play with it on the road though I usually do when I'm on track given the opportunity, which I bet applies to many of us). I think we're in violent agreement is that you need to have an understanding of what a RWD car will do when it breaches the limits of adhesion and any RWD car will behave in a way that can bite you if you don't know what it is going to do and react appropriately.
On that basis I accept it does no good for people coming from a FWD or ESP equipped car to believe the 944 can defy the laws of physics - it's a good and balanced chassis but it has limits and you need to both realise that and explore them off road for the first time if you haven't got a lot of RWD "seat time" behind you.
Guest
New member
Good to see my comment sparked some debate! I clicked a little more with my car at the weekend, so was able to be a little more confident in its balance. It is obvious that the 944 has a very good chassis, but tbh, with the turbo engine at least, it especially demands respect in the wet and when tanking along in the dry. It will bite the unwary, but then so will a FWD 1.1 106 if you come off the throttle at the wrong time. Seat time is the thing - specifically quality of seat time - I haven't spent enough time in 'the zone' to learn the car. Currently I am finding it far less intuitive and a sight more difficult to drive than the Caterham Superlight R I had before (190bhp, 500kgs, RWD with LSD), but I did a lot more trackdays in that, and I was always in the zone in that car!!
I'm taking the cheaper route to getting to know my car first - doing an airfield day 2nd Sept, but otherwise, I have heard great things about Andy Walsh's days.
I'm taking the cheaper route to getting to know my car first - doing an airfield day 2nd Sept, but otherwise, I have heard great things about Andy Walsh's days.
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