Nearly bit me

[944Turbo]

Yes, sorry Fen you got the blame - Ben I also share your love of driving - you have been my passenger so you may have noticed I am just a little worried about your safety and those of others especially when you get the new Missile. I had a big accident a few years back (actually 17 when I was 21) that injured other road users, not badly it turned out, but it was truly horrible and not something I would want to repeat, Your stories (the BMW for instance) lead me to believe that you could endure the same without some care.
I believe you went for a drive with Nick - who is a very good driver - who suggested the IAM as a good first step - he has done that and Rospa and HPC and many other advanced driver training sessions on road and track, he knows that the IAM isn't the be all and end all but it would save you money over going direct to HPC for instance as the basic skills / drills are still relevant. My accident was caused by a lack of knowledge 'run over small animals dont swerve' (however cute they look), it could have killed me and others, I was very lucky we walked away.
No matter how good your car control is there is always something that may trip you up. The more you know the less likely you are to be caught out.

I sound like an old git! []


Tony

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: Fen
Ben - it wasn't me who brought up your driving history it was Tony and Paul.

Oh yes, just re-read and noticed I meant Tony.

Regards,

Ben

p.s. those are some great pictures you have there Fen. Don't you get flagged down and abused for doing that sort of thing on a track day? I had heard its becoming dificult to drive fast on track days now!

 

[DivineE]

Did my IAM already with mixed oppinions of the course. I felt that it strongly depended on which instructor you got. There were a few I met who knew the theories very well but clearly did not actually understand it and I would say they were not natural drivers. Some intructors were very good though. Pick of the draw.

I remember you talking about the accident where you were only saved by the way the car landed on the ditch and do understand your worry about the new missile John's buying but rest assured that the car means an awful lot to me and I will NOT be doing anything stupid to endanger it! Enjoy yes, speed maybe, track definately.. but push it I will not!

 

[beavercraig]

also point out you contradict yourself by saying you posted about excessive speed (implication being you felt it was OK to post) and were moderated yet now you are looking for Ben to be moderated for a similar post - which is right in your mind? Sounds to me like you think speeding is OK on a public road but breaking traction isn't which is dubious logic at best.

Yep I did think mentioning a particular speed was ok having done it in France, however in hindsight I accept in view of the Cannonball run etc it was probably inappropriate, just in case some crackpot journalist is watching the forum and writes, "Porsche Club GB Member hits xxx mph" Even though the club doesn't take responsibility for the detail of posts there is a natural association which was pointed out to me and which I now accept.

As you rightly say we all do things we shouldn't on the road on occasion, however not many of us would excplore our own limitations on purpose on a public road.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: beavercraig
Yep I did think mentioning a particular speed was ok having done it in France, however in hindsight I accept in view of the Cannonball run etc it was probably inappropriate, just in case some crackpot journalist is watching the forum and writes, "Porsche Club GB Member hits xxx mph" Even though the club doesn't take responsibility for the detail of posts there is a natural association which was pointed out to me and which I now accept.

Please don't bring Cannonbal into this. I can't write on here what I think of those 'ppl' since the swear word filter would likely **** most of it out.

Pushing the car hard on an abandoned wide open country road in the dry is one thing, driving above the limit on the Autoroute is another, driving way to fast in traffic or on busy british motorways is another but the cannonball ***** really take the biscuit.

If the sorts of things we have been talking about are at level 1 of naughtiness then cannonball (or atleast what is played over and over whenever it is on the telly) is at level 10.

 

[Fen]

I think we're agreeing now then - we're all naughty at times and I have done it both sideways and very fast (though not in combination!)

I personally wouldn't indulge in a bit of sideways that I felt was testing my limits on the road. Perhaps when I was younger I was less responsible and maybe I'm arrogant now (because I'm sure the average Daily Mail reader would still class me slightly above an HIV positive paedophile psychopath in terms of threat to society), but I feel that I use speed and sliding only where I feel safe doing it. Other critical factors are that I will not endanger anyone else (covered my own safety though) and that I will not be caught or even seen by a busybody. Opportunities are therefore few and far between but they do crop up occasionally and I believe I am within an acceptable envelope of safety wt the time.

Ben - the pics were taken on the Haynes track at Sparkford which we had privately hired and we were only letting one car through the gate from the car park at a time, so apart from someone acting as a timer/marshal I was the only person inside the fence around the track.

It's a short, narrow track that is mainly for handling testing and we were timing each other over 3 laps from a standing start. The other cars were all FWD VW/SEAT/Audi and hence I was showboating every lap and trying to make an impression on the tread depth of a set of P6000s. I was still one of only 3 cars to break 1:50 for the laps (shows how short it is) despite cornering one section with the steering on the lock stops to the left then the right. The fastest corner is about 75mph entry speed and I did spin there one lap through missing a downshift. This is my only other pic from the day though I have a short video clip of the sideways bit.

 

[arumdevil]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

It's all very well learning it from a book and knowing the theory, even to an extent learning it under controlled conditions like on a skid pan. I guarantee however that when faced with an emergency such as an unexpected slide at speed it will all go completely out of the window and you will act on instinct alone.

exactly what happened to me last month and even though I knew some of the theory of how to control a slide, I didn't know enough and had no experience anyway, so when it hit me out of the blue I reacted instinctively which landed me in a wall. When I get around to getting another '44, I will be seeking out some advanced driving tutelage and track time at the very least so if I get caught out again I have a better chance of keeping it in check.

I do agree with what others have said though, and I do think that intentionally getting sideways on a public road is silly, to put it mildly.

 

[Fen]

See, the sentiment of that last paragraph really p's me off.

You might as well say "I think driving at over 70 (or 60 or 50 or 40 or 30 mph) is silly because I guarantee there are people with driving licenses who are unsafe at those speeds, but does that mean it's silly for anyone to exceed them? Hardly.

Driving at even 20mph is inherently dangerous in absolute terms yet we all drive at far higher speeds routinely with no problem. Similarly going sideways is inherently dangerous but it can be done without incident.

You say yourself that you had no experience to fall back on when your 944 stepped out. While I don't advocate you gain that experience on the public road I think we agree it would be valuable to gain it somewhere controlled. However I take exception to your suggestion that it is blanket silly for someone who has that experience to exercise it ever purely on the basis they are on a public road.

This sort of thing is the crux of why I want to leave this country - rules, beliefs and legislation based on the lowest common denominator rather than maturity and common sense.

 

[944Turbo]

reminded me of this

"Minorities that feel under siege from the larger society (gun owners is one such group in the US) will sometimes form fairly large successful organizations to defend their interests. We're probably closest to this latter group but without the one compelling reason or sense of need to join in the interest of self-defense. Like AARP or the AAA, the most successful of any of these groups has some kind of tangible benefit that attracts and holds members.

So how do we stack up? Instead of fun we offer aggravation, political battles, and when the day is done all we may have accomplished is preserve the status-quo, which may not be too great to begin with. Instead of having a common bond and sense of comradship most drivers think other drivers are incompetent jerks who they have to compete with for the same chunk of highway. Everybody drives so there is no sense of being unique, or special. There clearly is a need for organizations like ours, but our potential members have nothing in common, other than being motorists which they don't see as a seperate and unique population. What's worse is a large percentage of the driving public thinks low speed limits, ticket cameras, and huge fines are a good thing because they figure they will screw the other guy."

Which was in a mail between two drivers groups one in the US and one here, pointing out that its very difficult to overcome the apathy of motorists when they are persecuted by the government.

time for a rant,

Motorist contribute massive surpluses to the governement (£42 billion income £6billion expenditure) wheras public transport is run on massive subsidies The car has massively improved our standard of living, healthcare and way of life. We are then made to feel guilty for using it or daring to enjoy it.

Whenever global warming comes up the car is the enemy, we are taxed on CO2 despite there being no real proof it is a problem.
Global warming was blamed last year for the driest July "on record" (the tiniest fraction of the life of the planet) and then the wettest this year. 'Scientists' predict with certainty that the planet will be warmer in 5 years time but cannot tell you next weeks weather. AND the car is a minor producer of CO2 relative to industry, farming and power generation.

Circuits have to pander to neighbours who move in to properties that are cheaper because they are by a circuit and then complain about the noise.

Drivers think all the others are idiots - which is clearly not true, more people die from accidents in the home than accidents on the roads, despite many millions of vehicle movements each day.

Most motorists are sensible the tiny minority that are not are usually illegal - no insurance cloned plates etc. and life is getting easier for them.

Cameras don't and can't work they make drivers take their eyes off the road, and most cameras you pass will cause traffic to be closer together than otherwise, if your illegal (e.g. car not registered to you) what do you care?

Drivers thinking the other is an idiot means the government can get away with persecuting us.

Speed limits are set by lottery, roads are worn out, we are being totally screwed as motorists.

Here we are on a performance car club forum and how many are memebers of the ABD or have considered fighting back against the relentless rip off that is motoring in the UK.

I care enough to rant and I am not even a memeber of the ABD anymore (must pay up) [] The ABD and safe speed are the only groups standing up for the motorist and have members numbered in the the low thousands.

Tony

 

[DivineE]

Love the way this thread is going, totally agree with both Tony and Fen here. Unfortunately it is simple fact that much like the smoking ban as a minority group who enjoy cars we are fighting a loosing battle! Solution.. A) move to Italy and become part of the majority[] or B) Be like me and carry on regardless because the current anti speeding measures will never catch the observant driver anyway!

Regards,

Ben

p.s. In response to the earlier comment from the chap who crashed come out for a spin in my car any time you like and tell me whether you think your really likely to get hurt?! I've been in pleanty of other 944's with people who drive just the same and I've never felt at risk or worried about it. Fact is that a bad driver taking me around a town at 25mph scares me a hell of a lot more!

 

[Neil Haughey]

amen brothers.

After moving into the country I feel the same amount fox hunting and shooting. A loaded rifle or shotgun is only as dangerous as the idiot or madman holding it. Unfortunately we live in a country where everyone has an opinion about things they know little to nothing about and this opinion is unfortunately cultured by a media, who always have the cheek to claim that they only respond to what the readers want to read!

 

[arumdevil]

Sorry Fen, I posted that in a rush and I didn't really mean it as the simple blanket statement it looked like. Of course there are people who have the necessary skill and experience to get (any given car) into a sideways slide in a controlled and safe way, and doing so on a public road so long as it clear is obviously no not comparable to someone driving at dangerously high speeds on a public road. What I meant by my comment was people who don't have that experience and skill practising such antics, and I didn't mean to implicate anyone else in this thread (apart from perhaps myself).

Sorry I didn't take the time before to be more clear about what I meant, but I honestly didn't mean it like it came across!

 

[beavercraig]

All I can say is the one liner underneath the 944 register sums most of you lot up! [][]
"Engine in the front, gearbox in the back and a nut in the middle"[8|][8|]

 

[Fen]

I claim exemption from that. On the basis mine doesn't have an engine in the front.. []

 

[beavercraig]

ORIGINAL: Fen

I claim exemption from that. On the basis mine doesn't have an engine in the front.. []

Wot u doing/?[8|] Adding another two cylinders and then refitting in the back![][]

 

[Fen]

Nope. Most likely adding another 4 and keeping it where it should be []

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

Love the way this thread is going, totally agree with both Tony and Fen here. Unfortunately it is simple fact that much like the smoking ban as a minority group who enjoy cars we are fighting a loosing battle! Solution.. A) move to Italy and become part of the majority[]

Interesting point this about Italy. I used to share a house with a woman who lived in Italy for many years. She reckoned that the thing that Italians are bad drivers is a myth, many of them do drive like nut cases but she reckoned that the average Italian driver was probably better at driving and controlling the car then the average British driver.

We have a bizarre attitude in this country which applies to all walks of life i.e. the best at a certain activity are the ones which stay closest to all the rules and agreed standards and conventions.

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey


Interesting point this about Italy. I used to share a house with a woman who lived in Italy for many years. She reckoned that the thing that Italians are bad drivers is a myth, many of them do drive like nut cases but she reckoned that the average Italian driver was probably better at driving and controlling the car then the average British driver.

We have a bizarre attitude in this country which applies to all walks of life i.e. the best at a certain activity are the ones which stay closest to all the rules and agreed standards and conventions.

Quite true on all accounts. My comment about Italians was aimed more at the opinion that the majority are car enthusiasts rather than at their driving style. I agree they are probably better drivers on the whole having seen a women driving a tour bus practically hit opposite lock on half the bends whilst calmly talking to the closest passenger without hesitation. Even if they do change the driving laws in Italy it doesn't make any difference because nobody pays a blind bit of notice to it the local Police included. I LOVE their mentality.

It is odd how the British all seek conformity above all else.

 

[sawood12]

I don't believe the Italians are better drivers that us. The accident rate in Italy is far worse and the vast majority of their cars have dents and scratches. I've driven in Italy and they are shocking drivers. I've neve been so scared in all my life. I'm not sure why Neil is taking advice about driving standards from a woman, let alone an Italian woman![]

 

[Hilux]

I have driven through Rome (and round the coliseum) and on Italian motorways and found the following..........

Traffic lights are only there to warn you of a junction. Green means flat out with rev limiter protesting. Red means slow down into second but it is a matter of family honour to actually have to stop and hold up the hordes behind you so most creep forward into the priority stream of traffic causing them to swerve around them.

Motorway lanes that are coned off are a means of settling historical family disputes (think of duelling in olde worlde England) the one who blinks or hesitates first will die as they try to sqeeze in at the last possible moment and then shake their fists at you if you dare to question their manhood by tooting or gesticulating an any manner whatsoever (even in an Italian hire car)

On major junctions roundabouts, city centres, squares etc, it is like the start of an F1 race with all cars battling for the same space and switching lanes (switching multiple lanes) so as to gain a one nanosecond advantage over each other. Just like F1 cars indicators are not required and late braking is de rigeur.

On motorways they simply tie each car together with a 6 inch length of chain and the most powerful car (at the front) tows all the less powerful cars at warp 11 swapping lanes and undertaking as required.


Great fun but in my book sometimes bl**dy frightening but not good drivers at all simply fearless.