Nearly bit me

[northo]

This is a really interesting post.

I have had my S2 since March and have loved every minute of it - it is strictly a weekend warrior for our fantastic roads up here in Scotland, and I have found it very "accomodating". It is certainly easier to get into a controlled slide than the Cayman S. I still live by the rule that I am a rubbish driver, and consequently assume that there is always a chance that things will go horribly wrong, even in optimum conditions. I would love to know how many of you out there are boosting through corners sideways in the dry - I have often heard it claimed (not on this forum I might add!), and always wonder how people manage it. I get to drive quite a few exotics in my line of work, and have never had the balls to try it in style, let alone manage to defeat the cars level of grip. I can only imagine that it would take a 944 some severe provocation in the dry and some very empty roads, not to mention a good insurance policy and balls the size of water melons.

Any answers?

 

[Fen]

Low speed admittedly...

 

[Guest]

My Turbo has got a lot of grip - a public road slide at high speed would scare me! Trouble is, I haven't got the balls to try a bit of sideways behaviour round a roundabout even - fear that turbo will put me in the kerbs before I get time respond! It is only in this situation that I regret going for the turbo though, so far!

 

[Fen]

 

[arumdevil]

mmmmm, nice pics Fen. What colour is that? looks like mine did (crystal green)...

a

 

[Fen]

It's Glacier blue.

 

[arumdevil]

ah ok, (no doubt I knew that from the colours thread..) looks very similar. And nice

 

[Fen]

I don't think that one is is the colours thread. I like Glacier, but that car is long gone from my ownership.

 

[northo]

In the interests of science I hurled myself into a very big roundabout today (in the dry) and lifted off as dramatically as I could. Hey Presto - Lift off oversteer! Biggest slide I have had in the car, and in the dry. Another valuable rung climbed on the ladder of driver experience.......

 

[DivineE]

I hate always being the one who goes against the grain and sounds like the fool here but if I'm honest, the last time I was actually driving a 944 as a daily driver I generally used to unstick the back end quite frequently.

Although I must say I would never intentionally do it at high speed on the road and every time it has happened at big speeds my buttocks are well and truly clenched until the car is straight again!

There are 3 or 4 favourite corners I have on the 10 mile journey I do to work all which cannot sensibly be taken at more than about 50mph and which you can see over the hedge to the exit of the corner as come down the road on the approach. If there are no cars around (and there never are) I pull out quite wide, break quite late, change down from 3rd to second whilst breaking and blip floor the throttle as I lift off the clutch. The result is the car will immediately break away from the back (wet, dry doesn't make a great deal of difference doing it this way).

Then I adjust the lock on the steering wheel to compensate, you have to react quite quickly at first to catch it, then the car should very quickly squat down settle itself into the slide. At this point you need to back off and modulate the throttle to hold the angle. This all happens very quickly at the entry of the corner but once you've caught the initial break away its very easy to keep the car sliding. (It's much harder to hold an angle around a roundabout at 10-15mph because you don't have enough momentum to keep the car settled.)

Usually the only time it goes wrong for me and I get the car horribly out of shape is when I don't give it enough revs or take too long as I change into 2nd, if the boost dies off then the tires won't immediately spin and that delay is just enough to ensure the turbo kicks back in at the worst time possible launching the car violently sideways in the middle of the bend.

As someone mentioned above the steering input required is minimal and the hardest part is definitely coming out of the slide smoothly without it jerking back straight or worse. The best way I have found to solve this is to fully depress the accelerator as soon as you can see out of the corner so that as you straighten up the steering the back wheels are spinning fastest and the back end sits almost straight but not quite until you let off the throttle for a second to grab third at which point the tires grip and you accelerate away.

Unlike some RWD cars I've owned which really do make you understand how limited your abilities as a driver are and how good the 944 is to compensate for your lack of talent. The 944 is a very easy car to control in a slide. If you read the above and thought that sounds very scary and dangerous then you should NOT be going out on the road to try it. I was very lucky to have had a friend with 15 square miles of land in which I have spent many hours sideways driving FWD, AWD, RWD cars and tractors in over the years. I first got the feeling for throwing a car about on tarmac in large car parks and industrial estates in the wee hours of the morning.

I would recommend you get comfortable with the feeling of the car breaking away and then catching it before you try ever to drift a corner but just like when you first learn to drive after a while you stop actually thinking about the processes of what your doing and it becomes second nature. Then you realise that it's not actually skilful to do, it's just something else to learn.
Just before I sold my last 944 I spent some time experimenting with left foot braking which is fantastic because it allows you to control the speed of the car without altering the angle of the slide. In practice this means you can drift round a roundabout at ludicrous angles with the rear wheels spinning like crazy at an immense speed of about 5mph [:-][] Unfortunately I'm not that good at it yet and 9 out of 10 times it probably looked about as smooth as the Hymilayas!

Regards,

Ben

 

[beavercraig]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

I hate always being the one who goes against the grain and sounds like the fool here but if I'm honest, the last time I was actually driving a 944 as a daily driver I generally used to unstick the back end quite frequently.

Although I must say I would never intentionally do it at high speed on the road and every time it has happened at big speeds my buttocks are well and truly clenched until the car is straight again!

There are 3 or 4 favourite corners I have on the 10 mile journey I do to work all which cannot sensibly be taken at more than about 50mph and which you can see over the hedge to the exit of the corner as come down the road on the approach. If there are no cars around (and there never are) I pull out quite wide, break quite late, change down from 3rd to second whilst breaking and blip floor the throttle as I lift off the clutch. The result is the car will immediately break away from the back (wet, dry doesn't make a great deal of difference doing it this way).

Then I adjust the lock on the steering wheel to compensate, you have to react quite quickly at first to catch it, then the car should very quickly squat down settle itself into the slide. At this point you need to back off and modulate the throttle to hold the angle. This all happens very quickly at the entry of the corner but once you've caught the initial break away its very easy to keep the car sliding. (It's much harder to hold an angle around a roundabout at 10-15mph because you don't have enough momentum to keep the car settled.)

Usually the only time it goes wrong for me and I get the car horribly out of shape is when I don't give it enough revs or take too long as I change into 2nd, if the boost dies off then the tires won't immediately spin and that delay is just enough to ensure the turbo kicks back in at the worst time possible launching the car violently sideways in the middle of the bend.

As someone mentioned above the steering input required is minimal and the hardest part is definitely coming out of the slide smoothly without it jerking back straight or worse. The best way I have found to solve this is to fully depress the accelerator as soon as you can see out of the corner so that as you straighten up the steering the back wheels are spinning fastest and the back end sits almost straight but not quite until you let off the throttle for a second to grab third at which point the tires grip and you accelerate away.

Unlike some RWD cars I've owned which really do make you understand how limited your abilities as a driver are and how good the 944 is to compensate for your lack of talent. The 944 is a very easy car to control in a slide. If you read the above and thought that sounds very scary and dangerous then you should NOT be going out on the road to try it. I was very lucky to have had a friend with 15 square miles of land in which I have spent many hours sideways driving FWD, AWD, RWD cars and tractors in over the years. I first got the feeling for throwing a car about on tarmac in large car parks and industrial estates in the wee hours of the morning.

I would recommend you get comfortable with the feeling of the car breaking away and then catching it before you try ever to drift a corner but just like when you first learn to drive after a while you stop actually thinking about the processes of what your doing and it becomes second nature. Then you realise that it's not actually skilful to do, it's just something else to learn.
Just before I sold my last 944 I spent some time experimenting with left foot braking which is fantastic because it allows you to control the speed of the car without altering the angle of the slide. In practice this means you can drift round a roundabout at ludicrous angles with the rear wheels spinning like crazy at an immense speed of about 5mph [:-][] Unfortunately I'm not that good at it yet and 9 out of 10 times it probably looked about as smooth as the Hymilayas!

Regards,

Ben

I hate to be a spoil sport and sound "like my dad" here! But just two questions:-

1. Should you really be learning / trying to drift on open public roads even if they are empty?
2. Should you guys be discussing / admitting it on a public forum?

Where's the moderation?
Learn to drive the car but do it somewehere safe! Or even better take some lessons on a track from a pro!

 

[DivineE]

I am definitely not recommending dangerous driving to anyone! Please don't think that I'm suggesting people should push the limits of their ability on a public road that wasn't what I was trying to say at all.

I only disagree in that I can't see any problem with experimenting on an empty road, in a car made to handle far greater speeds, travelling at no more than 50mph?! If you spin a car at 50 (worst case scenario as you'll never be doing more than that) by the time you've gone far enough to hit anything you'll hardly be moving anyway! It uses up all the energy in the slide. Even on grass you only travel a couple of car lengths if you lose control. I think these modern campaigns severely exaggerate the dangers of speed and it gets into everyone's heads. Drives me crazy to see how it has affected the entire car enthusiast population to lunacy!

Dangerous driving and excessive speed are of course are causes of accidents. What the law can't account for is what is dangerous / excessive in any given scenario.

The example I usually give is a Honda 4x4's with 5 people in all chatting away merrily (probably paying very little attention to the road and with limited driving ability) driving around the roads in the wet with no consideration to the consequences!

2 tons + rear drum brakes + driver with limited ability + 60mph on blind bends = SERIOUS Accident waiting to happen! I've seen it so often when big comfortable (heavy) cars come off the road and crash. The driver always gets out shaking like mad white as a sheet saying the car just slid out of control suddenly! They have no idea how close they are to the grip limits of their cars and manufacturers are not helping the matter!

 

[944Turbo]

In reply to the post that has gone - it depends on the pro

but anyway,

Ben, remind me again how many cars you have broken []

[]

That makes you either very qualified to write about advance car control and its consequences - or not []

I do however agree that under certain conditions where visibility is excellent stepping over the limit may be possible safely on the road, Identifying those opportunities is the hard part.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Where's the moderation?

Here.....[8|]

Not quite sure what you want moderated, or how it breaks the forum rules?

I might agree with you, or not, but either way I think people are allowed to say what they like within the rules. I'm sure that the forum has been used more than once by Porsche owners to say they've broken the speed limit, is that any different?

Personally, I am happy to say that I've explored the handling of my car within the safety of clear roads and suitable conditions....I don't consider that dangerous.

Ben, on the other hand, should not have a driving license....[][][][][][]

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: beavercraig


I hate to be a spoil sport and sound "like my dad" here! But just two questions:-

1. Should you really be learning / trying to drift on open public roads even if they are empty?
2. Should you guys be discussing / admitting it on a public forum?

Where's the moderation?
Learn to drive the car but do it somewehere safe! Or even better take some lessons on a track from a pro!

Whilst I agree with you in principle I have to stick up for good old fashioned common sence and treating adults like adults even if they don''t want to act like adults so in response to your points:-

1. why not? If someone wants to act like a hooligan on the roads when no-one is around then why shouldn't they if it's only thier own license or life they are risking? I personally might not approve of what they do but I will stand up and fight for peoples right to do it so long as they are not risking other lives.

2. Why not? This is a country that supposidly believes in the freedom of speech. Last time I looked at a history book we won WW2 and avoided the rule of a fascist dictator, though sometimes with all the PC claptrap being bounded around and the minority having a disproportionate influence on shaping society these days i'm not so sure we've ended up at the same place just 60yrs down the road.

If the moderators were to censor everything that was not sensible on this forum they would be extremely busy and there wouldn't be much to read.

I'll get off me soap box now!

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: beavercraig

I hate to be a spoil sport and sound "like my dad" here! But just two questions:-

1. Should you really be learning / trying to drift on open public roads even if they are empty?
2. Should you guys be discussing / admitting it on a public forum?

Where's the moderation?
Learn to drive the car but do it somewehere safe! Or even better take some lessons on a track from a pro!

Why do you have a performance car, just to pose or compensate for something in the trouser department? You posted earlier in this thread (which is in the 944 forum remember) suggesting someone buy a 911 and now this. Really - are you sure this Porsche business is for you? I strongly suspect it's just an ego boost isn't it?

 

[beavercraig]

ORIGINAL: Fen

ORIGINAL: beavercraig

I hate to be a spoil sport and sound "like my dad" here! But just two questions:-

1. Should you really be learning / trying to drift on open public roads even if they are empty?
2. Should you guys be discussing / admitting it on a public forum?

Where's the moderation?
Learn to drive the car but do it somewehere safe! Or even better take some lessons on a track from a pro!

Why do you have a performance car, just to pose or compensate for something in the trouser department? You posted earlier in this thread (which is in the 944 forum remember) suggesting someone buy a 911 and now this. Really - are you sure this Porsche business is for you? I strongly suspect it's just an ego boost isn't it?

Fen you obviously haven't read my thread as you would notice I have never mentioned anything in my thread about speed. My comments were about pushing the boundaries of ones personal abilities on open public roads and then discussing it on an open forum.
Theres a huge difference between driving quickly and smoothly albeit sometimes illegally and blatently trying to get the car going sideways or drifting. Trust me guys I have had enough years rallying and attending track days to know the difference.

To react to an unforeseen situation when you are in the middle of a 45degree drift at any speed takes tremendous experience and skill.

All I am saying is, in the eyes of the law getting caught drifting on a public road would be seen as blatant dangerous driving.

In terms of moderation I myself was repremanded and edited on this very forum by a moderator for quoting a speed I was travelling at recently. I wasn't even in this country at the time. So yes I do think allowing a public discussion on what is in effect dangerous driving on public roads should have some degree of modeartion applied to it! If not then by default PCGB is supporting these actions.

All I am saying is there are better safer places that will give you more fun, improve your skills, and keep other people safe! I also note the pics you posted were obviously taken at a track and not on the A3XXX roundabout.

 

[DivineE]

Now that I've had some sleep and come back with a fresh mind I must say that my post didn't quite sound as I wanted. What I meant to do with my original post is explain how (for those that were questioning) people can use excessive power at low speeds to break traction and learn about car control rather than driving around oblivious to what might happen and then having no idea how to control it when the unexpected happens!

It's all very well learning it from a book and knowing the theory, even to an extent learning it under controlled conditions like on a skid pan. I guarantee however that when faced with an emergency such as an unexpected slide at speed it will all go completely out of the window and you will act on instinct alone.

If I'm very honest and humble about it then Fen is actually right I did have 2 BIG accidents (all on my own, no other cars involved) both in the first year of my driving! Both times it was the instinctive nature of overcorrecting which led me into a tank slapper and finally threw me off the road. The second time it happened I was so mad at myself for doing it again that I decided I needed to seriously improve my driving. I'm never going to be a slow driver, that's just not realistic and life is too short to be boring so I went out and started practicing at night in quiet places in my road car rather than go karts and scrappy farm cars I had driven before.

It took me bloody ages to get to the point that I no longer thought about correcting a slide, it just happened without thinking about it. Since then it has saved my skin since then. I now continue to do it so often for two reasons:

1. I can't stand seeing beautiful cars rolling around at 40-50mph everywhere never being driven and never even making any noise. So it gives me great pleasure to enjoy knowing I drive my car properly every day, it seems life passes too fast not to go out and enjoy it"¦

2. I want to keep practicing to improve further and not get rusty and out of practice which seems to happen very quickly! It took me months to get truly comfortable again in the last 944 I had because I hadn't driven one for a while and I've now been driving a FWD shopping trolley for way too long again and I'm feeling less than confident about stepping back into a 944 turbo. I know I'm going to need to drive like a biddy for the first few months again before I can start enjoying the car.

Sorry I write soo much on this topic but driving is something I really care about. I really love the cars but the driving is very important to me.

Regards,

Ben

 

[Neil Haughey]

Just to balance things again and agree with the other guys:
1) I don't think anyone on here is talking about going out with the intention of chucking the car about to provoke a slide.
2) If you actually drive fast rather then just saying it then yes you will even on public roads go over the cars limits from time to time. Chuck in dodgy road surfaces, damp greasy corners and other unforseen hazards and the likelyhood goes up. Anyone that doesn't admit this is either a liar or a BS artist.
3) I have a clean license and have never been given points (not making this up), but I was given a verbal warning by the plod for pulling a really nice slide out of one of the roundabouts at the Sixfields end of Northampton. The attitude of the copper was most refreshing. Basically if I want to play with the car do it out on the b roads and away from traffic and situations that could have easilly produced an accident. The point he made about ppl pulling out in front of you on roundabouts when you are going fast is hard to argue against and applies just as much if the car is only at 75%. In hindsight I agreed with the guy, decided it was time to grow up and like everyone else on here I have tended to take it easy on main roads etc ever since.
4) I agree with Fen to some extent. Basically all modern porks apart from GT#R are road cars if anyone has a problem with driving fast on the road then why in the hell buy a fast road car!

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: beavercraig

Fen you obviously haven't read my thread as you would notice I have never mentioned anything in my thread about speed. My comments were about pushing the boundaries of ones personal abilities on open public roads and then discussing it on an open forum.
Theres a huge difference between driving quickly and smoothly albeit sometimes illegally and blatently trying to get the car going sideways or drifting. Trust me guys I have had enough years rallying and attending track days to know the difference.

To react to an unforeseen situation when you are in the middle of a 45degree drift at any speed takes tremendous experience and skill.

All I am saying is, in the eyes of the law getting caught drifting on a public road would be seen as blatant dangerous driving.

In terms of moderation I myself was repremanded and edited on this very forum by a moderator for quoting a speed I was travelling at recently. I wasn't even in this country at the time. So yes I do think allowing a public discussion on what is in effect dangerous driving on public roads should have some degree of modeartion applied to it! If not then by default PCGB is supporting these actions.

All I am saying is there are better safer places that will give you more fun, improve your skills, and keep other people safe! I also note the pics you posted were obviously taken at a track and not on the A3XXX roundabout.

I did read your post and I didn't mention speed - you have just now. I don't see the distinction between getting a bit of a slide on on a well-sighted corner where you can see nobody is around or driving at way over the speed limit - both are equally likely to get you slapped with DD and TBH the high speed is more likely to end in a massive accident. Get caught out drifting at 45 degrees and you may well be off or spin or hit something, but as Ben suggested you won't be carrying massive momentum. Get caught out at 3 figure speeds and your options are similar but pass you by much quicker and you have a lot more energy to dissipate between you and the solid object you're heading for.

The forum I'm sure has a disclaimer at sign-up time (it's a long time since I signed up now and probably has been overhauled since) making clear the views are those of the individual rather than the Club so I don't agree with the suggestion that the Club is condoning anything by allowing it to be published. I'm happy for that to be carried over to whatever small-minded idiot moderated your other post regarding speed if it was as you describe.

I also point out you contradict yourself by saying you posted about excessive speed (implication being you felt it was OK to post) and were moderated yet now you are looking for Ben to be moderated for a similar post - which is right in your mind? Sounds to me like you think speeding is OK on a public road but breaking traction isn't which is dubious logic at best.

I don't disagree that the best place to practice all of this is off road, but equally I don't believe all (or in fact any) of us let the fact we aren't allowed to do something stop us from doing it 100% of the time.

Ben - it wasn't me who brought up your driving history it was Tony and Paul.