New RMS Thread

NicD · Sep 24, 2004

Guys, time to start a new thread.

Content of letter to Porsche Cars now agreed, ready to be sent. Won't reprint here out of courtesy to PC, but contains the points you would expect.

Will be sent by David Newton.

Note that although PC knows that we in the Club are taking this point seriously, they have not closed lines of communication with us.

I have received updates from a handful of members, but need many more case studies. I plan to re-contact many of the members who replied to the RMS Survey, and do a follow up

Now starting to cut and paste members experience from the various threads into a "book". Lots of fun.

JCB.. · Sep 25, 2004

Guest · Sep 25, 2004

Nic

Thanks for your latest.

Can it be arranged for a member of the admin staff to let those of us with a keen interest have a copy of the letter individually via email please?

Guest · Sep 26, 2004

hi everybody just joined the forum today--talking about rms just sent mine in to be done
got a phone call from phil at tps 300--its not your rms its a o ring below it-i will find out more later in the week as anbody else had this problem with the o ring---cheers mike[

]

NicD · Sep 26, 2004

Nigel,

I have just asked the Board whether I can release the letter, and yes we might, but not till after Geoff Turral has received and replied to it. Courtesy again. We are in for the long haul.

As I said though, the letter contains the points we have campaigned for so far.

NicD · Sep 26, 2004

Michael,

please keep us informed of outcome, but we have heard of several small oil leaks which turn out not to be the RMS.

Grant · Sep 27, 2004

Well done Nick, it is an issue that need's sorting. I hope Porsche response positively even if it ends up with a compromise of them only covering cars with full OPC service history.

Guest · Sep 28, 2004

Hi Nic,
Just got back from a fantastic week in Cannes. Thanks once again for your continued support.

Here's another take on the RMS saga.

While in Cannes, there was some sort of Auto festival on and Porsche had a stand. It was
manned by Porsche of Antibes. Anyway the next day I happen to be in Antibes and I popped into the Porsche centre there (they had a 997). Got talking to a salesman (in broken busicuit English). Told him about my problems and as we were talking the sales manager came over and joined in the conversation. Then an engineer joined in. The engineer was German and spoke excellent English. He brought a most interesting analysis to the problem. I didn't mention my gearbox problem to him but he said that he believes the cause of the RMS problem originates from a gearbox problem. I asked him to explain more. He said he has been a Porsche engineer for several years and he has replaced many 996/986 RMS's and many resulted also in replacement gearboxes due to missaligned Getrag drive shafts which wobble ever so slightly but put strain on the flywheel and thus the crankshaft. He said that the problem "has" been fixed in the 997 as the 997 uses an entiely different gearbox, flywheel and engine block. He also said that it's a 50/50 chance that the gearbox would never be diagnosed since it does not necessarily show a problem. It just manifests in the RMS failing. He explained that he had a customer with a new 996 C4S and he had an RMS problem. He replaced it (he used the mandrel tool). Then it came
back again. The mandrel showed bad tolerance the 2nd time round so he replaced the engine. Then it came back again a 3rd time but this was a new engine (so really it was its 1st again). Again he replaced the seal but alas it failed again. Finally
he came up with the idea that the gearbox could be the cause so he ordered a replacement gearbox. He never did replace the seal again after that. With the new gearbox fitted the C4S has never had the RMS problem again and he said that
was 2 years ago. Now whenever he finds that the engine bore is out of tolerance on a car in for its RMS he realigns
and/or replaces the gearbox.

I then explained my gearbox problem. He feels absolutely certain that it is the cause of my repeat RMS problems. He even said, strange as it may seem but my RMS problem may dissapear even without the seal changed when I replace the gearbox. But he said the gearbox must be aligned correctly and tightened correctly in bolt order. He also said that the alignment is something he has got used to using his "ears?". Yes, he said he actually can hear if the alignment is correct. I am not sure what he means by this.

Anyway, he was a very interesting guy to talk to and IMHO he brought an interesting hypothesis to the subject.

Coincidentally, my OPC engineer in Liverpool diagnosed the gearbox being my RMS problems and I fobbed him off in the end telling him it was BS. Even Porsche GB Reading agreed with me and told the OPC that he can't use that excuse. But maybe there is something in this......we could all be running round with gearbox's that are incorrectly aligned or faulty and not knowing it....until the RMS problem shows up. I also wonder that since they have to tak the gearbox down to do the RMS, could it be that when the gearbox is put back that it's a 50% chance that it is aligned properly.
If it coincidentally gets aligned as it is replaced then you don't get the RMS problem but if it isn't then it just returns. Just a hunch based on what I have learned in the last week.

But please note this info is just hearsay from one OPC service engineer although I must say I find it quite feasible and especially as my OPC diagnosed the same problem (even though I didn't believe him then). What this engineer suggests
is that the problem may simply be due to a missaligned gearbox....and not necessarily a faulty one.

oldtimer · Sep 28, 2004

Interesting Bernie , I have heard from an ex OPC that tiptronic cars rarely suffer RMS problems....this should prompt some reponses!

Guest · Sep 28, 2004

Interesting indeed...

Well Oct 13th is my day of reckoning.

My car goes into my OPC yet again for RMS work. When I called Mann Island to book it in the engineer said
"Oh yes, Reading have spoken to us about your car. We have been instructed NOT to repair
your RMS this time ONLY to report back the crankshaft bearing bore measurements which we will measure
with the mandrel [and I hope also with precision calipers]. We will not put another seal in unless instructed to do so by Reading."

They only have limited ramp space so they will speak to Reading on the day they do the work.
I presume the idea is that if they find the engine tolerance is out then they will be expecting to
put a replacement engine in the car......who pays for this I can only guess [

]
On the other hand if its another RMS then I dunno where it goes from there.

I have also asked the engineer if it is possible for me to bring an independant inspector
to watch the procedure. He said yes no problem but he (and I) would have to stand outside the
workshop in the cold/wet (looking through a window I recall) as they do not have insurance
for us to be in the workshop. The operation will take 6 hours he said. Ho humm.....

The engineer was very polite on the phone but I think I detected a "here's that bloody trouble maker again"
feeling to his voice. Well I guess I can't blame him.

Peter_Bull · Sep 29, 2004

Bernie
I would ask Mann Island to contact their insurers and instruct them that they will have 'visitors' who are prepared to be there at their own risk. If you provide a letter to this end, I doubt that the insurance company would reject your request. I have been in those workshops on many occasions without any problems at all, and besides, if they can open the workshop up on so called 'open days' to the public there should be no problems at all getting the insurance companies nod!

TopBear · Sep 29, 2004

ORIGINAL: Peter Bull

Bernie
I would ask Mann Island to contact their insurers and instruct them that they will have 'visitors' who are prepared to be there at their own risk. If you provide a letter to this end, I doubt that the insurance company would reject your request. I have been in those workshops on many occasions without any problems at all, and besides, if they can open the workshop up on so called 'open days' to the public there should be no problems at all getting the insurance companies nod!

I was under the impression that PCGB arrange events at OPC's which include time in the garagediscussions with engineers. Does this not amount to the same thing except its organised via the PCGB?

Guest · Sep 29, 2004

Berny

Welcome back.

A most interesting summary on another potential cause of the RMS - as a matter of interest has Tool Pants had sight of the matter - always nice to get another opinion although I am sure we would all prefer one from Porsche [

].

Good luck for the 13th - at least it is a Wednesday [

]

Guest · Sep 29, 2004

Nic

Thanks for the response over the decision not to release the contents of the letter to Porsche at this stage - I don't agree with the Boards decision but then some might have expected me to say that.

Secondly have I missed something on the RMS debate or can I take it that you have chosen the 'optimum' number for a Committee and therefore continue to do all the work on your own ?

JCB.. · Sep 29, 2004

I was under the impression that PCGB arrange events at OPC's which include time in the garagediscussions with engineers. Does this not amount to the same thing except its organised via the PCGB?

I have certainly attended such an event at Porsche Centre Swindon just last year.

JCB..

NicD · Sep 30, 2004

Nigel,

Comittee not set up yet, I am working slowly on this.
Next steps are the survey form for 996 owners and the copy to be included in coming Porsche Post magazine

Guest · Oct 13, 2004

ping!

tim court · Oct 13, 2004

got a phone call from phil at tps 300--its not your rms its a o ring below it-i will find out more later in the week as anbody else had this problem with the o ring

From my paperwork - description of Fault/Work Required - "Rear main oil and inter seals leaking" so yes there are other bits in there.....

Berny, great theory and love your postings....

but how can the assembly be misaligned??? even Noah's horseless carriage had spigots to correctly align engine to clutchousing to gearbox!!!! Is the Porsche design that flawed???

NicD · Oct 13, 2004

Adrian,

ping is IT code for "are you there", and yes I am.

I am just about to send out the 996 RMS survey. A small article will be included in the next PP. BUT we do not want to unnecessarily alarm owners so are being careful with the wording.

For the rest, the flu has laid many of us down.

I am surprised that only a handful of people have sent me their car's life story and I have not been updated with some legal actions and negotiations with Porsche.

Please keep up the enthusiasm by emailing me at system@porscheclubgb.com