ProMAX Level 4

[Guest]

I think the crux of this interesting but long winded thread is

1.There is no cheap way to make big reliable RWHP on a 944 Turbo
2.If you try to save money, you pay double in the long run
3.If you buy componants make sure they are all compatible and match your long term goals otherwise read number 2 above
4.If you upgrade power make sure everything else is up to it. Remember some of these are now 20 year old cars
5.There sre excellent deals to be had in the US and if you ship sensibly you don't pay a fortune in shipping and VAT/Duty despite what many people say
6.If the car is running properly it is a fast enough car for most. If it is not running properly fix what you have before upgrading or using upgrades as Band Aids
7.Enjoy the cars for what they are. If you want to brag about big HP buy a Supra

For completeness, I have a 3.1 I am building and have been offered a lot of help from Dave Lindsey, Vitesse Racing (Does anybody know John's surname???) Jon Mitchell, Dave McGrath (Evil944), Scott Gomes and several members on Rennlist including Special Tool and Rage2.
Andy Sweetenham offers a great service with Promax. Many people would not buy good from the US directly and Andy has opened up a market in the UK. He has aslo developed parts himself as well as promoting esome excellent suppliers. I chose not to go that root as I have been importing from the US since 1985 and have a reasonable engineering background.
My rebuild and parts will probably work out around £12,000 by the time I finish and I am doing all the assembly.
When I started out I bought a 2.7 engine for £150 and a 3.0litre crank for £200. Its an easy trap to get into BEWARE!!!!!

 

[Fen]

Good summary Tom.

 

[333pg333]

Provided your components are balanced and the internals are of good quality, you can run more than 22psi on a larger capacity engine, but it depends on the VE as you suggested. The turbo may not be more efficient at higher psi anyway.You don't really need to run crazy high boost on the larger capacity engines either as the extra tq will get you going pretty fast anyway. The by product of the extra cc's are running lower boost. The liners will be harder and more resilient than the stock bores too.

PS it sounds like we've pretty much circled the wagons around the same point here. If you want a nice little kick along go for bolt on, if you want something with a bit more power do the build properly, si?

ORIGINAL: nick_968

I am not sure I agree with the school of thought that the lined versus unlined gives you capacity to run more boost on larger engines....the bigger the capacity of the engine, the more air you can process, once you start getting into high boost (22psi upwards) you are asking a lot of such a big engine and will start to run into problems such as keeping the head on the block!

Normal 2.5 944 turbo engines can run in the 22psi range without problems with the right accessories and tuning and I am pretty sure my 3.0 can as well but much more than that and it wont be the liners or the block that will be the first thing to go. If you want to run ultra high boost you are better off sticking to the 2.5 the way I understand it?

 

[944Turbo]

The interlocking tops to the bores on Jons Larger capacity motors makes them much stronger. The standard bore has no support around the top I liken it to a saturn 5 rocket nozzle in my mind that flexes and changes shape at high temps and pressures. If you look at headgasket failures on engines that have been running high boost number 4 cylinder will usually have some polish marks on the fire ring. Also there were pictures of a few failures on rennlist where cars had been running high boost and water injection cylinder 4 cracks down the bore from the top. I believe that there are additional loads on number 4 that makes it move/crack first - not sure what though, the flywheel maybe. I dont think it runs hotter (despite being furthest from the incoming cool air) IIRC from rennlisters research number 2 wins that crown.
Fens failure I believe might have been caused by severe sudden detonation, were you still runing with the knock sensor disconnected? Especially if it felt really strong up to the bang. Not a direct result of the boost but a combination of temp, ignition, mixture and boost.
Just my views however
Tony

 

[944Turbo]

And in reply to Tommo - pretty sure Jon/Simon dont make much money from the 3.2's I was lucky enough to see some of the process when they were developing/building Pauls engine and a hell of a lot of hours go into the build. The effort that is applied just to ensure everything is spotlessly clean is impressive enough, without even touching on the hours of thought and skill applied to all aspects. All +/- tolerances will be as close to the centre of the limits as humanly possible - and most humans wouldnt find it possible Simon really cares about the engines he builds.

Tony

 

[333pg333]

Our experience with the Darton MID's while not altogether satisfactory and by no means the fault of the sleeves themselves, have found the interlocking system and the inherent strength of the sleeve itself to be very high. While honing one of the sleeves recently my mechanic spent 45 mins with a honing stone tool and basically made NO impact on it! Dave McGrath is of the opinion that there is too much block flex that could possibly lead to leakage but we don't know this yet as we have done too few miles on either engine so far. Dave would advocate dry sleeves, deck plate, and pinning the girdle for a bullet proof bottom end.

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Fens failure I believe might have been caused by severe sudden detonation, were you still runing with the knock sensor disconnected? Especially if it felt really strong up to the bang. Not a direct result of the boost but a combination of temp, ignition, mixture and boost.
Just my views however
Tony

I agree it was possibly sudden detonation though I don't think it was a function of engine parameters so much as a momentary loss of the fuel system (overload?). I say that because although I didn't have knock sensor connected at the time the car had literally just been run with det cans connected and was pronounced not to be knocking so to suddently suffer catastrophic levels in the same atmospheric conditions and with the same fuel in the tank I think something had to have changed or failed.

It's also possible that the piston skirt simply failed due to the forces as the failure was around peak torque engine speed where they are at a maximum.

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

The standard bore has no support around the top I liken it to a saturn 5 rocket nozzle in my mind that flexes and changes shape at high temps and pressures.

Tony

I had heard that before somewhere. Makes sense when you see the standard block. I struggle to believe that the 3.2 blocks will have lower boost limits than the standard 3.0 block?! It's not what Jon has believes even though he does not believe high boost levels are necessary.

I've also shown the pictures to a few engineers working whithin F1 who all seemed v.impressed and started spouting impressive sounding technical babble about the design and its possible limits (note to self must get an engineering degree!).

 

[944Turbo]

Yes dont think we will ever know for sure, conditions are different out on the road but as you say unlikely to go from no det to catastrophic levels unles something broke or misbehaved. Usually you would expect higher temps on they dyno rather than the street as well.

Tony

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

I had heard that before somewhere.

Its not the first time I have said it - I will bore anyone who will listen when discussing high boost on the standard lump

 

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Yes dont think we will ever know for sure, conditions are different out on the road but as you say unlikely to go from no det to catastrophic levels unles something broke or misbehaved. Usually you would expect higher temps on they dyno rather than the street as well.

Tony

It was run with det cans on the road also and pronounced free from knock, which I think backs up the theory.

 

[DivineE]

Here is a scaled down comparison pic between the standard 2.5 block and Jon's new 3.2 block aka LIL...

ps as for dangers of going that large with the bore size.. 8mm over standard?!! I take it your not a follower of the A-series engine? They take 1000cc blocks up to 1497cc leaving only a knife edge slither of metal between the bores! Loony as they are I know they do still run well.

 

[333pg333]

I had issues with a faulty wastegate and also an incorrectly set electronic boost gauge that led to a BBQ'd valve. Hit over 30psi with some massive boost spikes. Not sure if this may have been a possible cause of your problems Fen?

 

[Fen]

I don't think so, though it may have been - it all happened too quickly to know and I wasn't data logging. IIRC you were running a Lindsey DPW whereas I have a TiAL 46mm. I know we don't like each other's wastegate choice, but I'm going to say I think it more likely something based on the standard housing is more likely to fail than the TiAL item.

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: tommo951

7.Enjoy the cars for what they are. If you want to brag about big HP buy a Supra

Yes but I should here point out that they're not actually that quick! They produce MASSIVE numbers because a well tuned one will rev to 11,000rpm so obviously hp is going to be huge at that rpm. Can't forget the massive weight though and that you'd need 560hp to get the same power to weight of a 400hp 944. Although the Supra is a good car its not likely to get round a track as fast as a 944 and will not produce the power and torque as low down as a 944. from watching people I know it seems so easy to spend £20k on tuning a Supra. People just don't invest the same money in 944's as they do rice rockets. I'm sure £20k on a 944 would make a very quick car indeed.

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: Fen

I don't think so, though it may have been - it all happened too quickly to know and I wasn't data logging. IIRC you were running a Lindsey DPW whereas I have a TiAL 46mm. I know we don't like each other's wastegate choice, but I'm going to say I think it more likely something based on the standard housing is more likely to fail than the TiAL item.

Actually I was running a Tial 38 at the time. hahaha. The spring jammed shut. This = massive boost!
I don't have an issue with the build quality of the Tial per se, and it may be different on the 46, but there was also the problem with the ebc which was a separate matter. Problem was that with a helmet on, it's very hard to hear all the pinging while your engine is trying it's hardest to go to the moon. I was lucky that time that it didn't obliterate itself.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: DivineE

ORIGINAL: tommo951

7.Enjoy the cars for what they are. If you want to brag about big HP buy a Supra

Yes but I should here point out that they're not actually that quick! They produce MASSIVE numbers because a well tuned one will rev to 11,000rpm so obviously hp is going to be huge at that rpm. Can't forget the massive weight though and that you'd need 560hp to get the same power to weight of a 400hp 944. Although the Supra is a good car its not likely to get round a track as fast as a 944 and will not produce the power and torque as low down as a 944. from watching people I know it seems so easy to spend £20k on tuning a Supra. People just don't invest the same money in 944's as they do rice rockets. I'm sure £20k on a 944 would make a very quick car indeed.

I have a mate who is a Jap loon, he has a 800hp skyline and a Supra which is over 800hp, he has just started playing around with an S2000 which he reckons will be pretty big figures too
Have you ever been in one of these japs? I am used to pretty high performance exotica as some on here will testify and yes they are quick, very quick. As for 11,000 revs, yes they will rev that far but you start to lose power after about 10,000 rpm. Peak power is a lot lower down the range.
And I would also say I can get that round a track as quick as a 944T
Now as to spending 20 grand on 944's. By the time I have added suspension componants brakes and all the lightweight panels etc etc I will have way over 20k in my 944T
If you go on rennlist you will find Dfastest (Joe) who has over $100,000 in his 944T and Guns951 (Gabriel) who will have well over $100,000 in his car when its finished. Rick Cannel and Paul Smith have quite a bit invested too and there does not seem any intention to stop so there are quite a few spending the money you mention.
Sometimes I think Fen has it right, fit a V8!!!

 

[Fen]

My response to "I'm sure £20k in a 944 would make it a very quick car indeed" was very nearly "no, it didn't"...

 

[DivineE]

Perhaps I should have phrased it £20k 'could' make a very quick 944! As for the 800hp cars if they genuinely produce that power (and I know some do) then they must have had some serious money spent on them! The fastest Jap car I know of thats proven to produce its power is a 600hp skyline that was tested on the rollers of truth at Silverstone! (the engine bought from Japan said it was 850hp but they never got it to run that). That felt VERY quick but it had the biggest turbo I've ever seen with a 4" inlet. It had massive lag and felt seriously impressive when all four wheels scrabbled at 80mph and your head was smashed against the seat but if you actually watch the speedo and compare it to something like a 996 turbo which is very smooth its not really alot quicker.. just feels that way.

Oh and I should mention that its had two engines this year!

 

[Hilux]

LS1 engine in a crate is about 400 bomb proof reliable BHP for about £3500 and it weighs the same.

New ECU and loom, uprated pump plus fitting (£3000??)

Potential for 500+bhp easily, 900 BHP with racing heads and twin turbos (£20,000 [])


Its what I`d do (but I wont) []

Agree with Fen though, I`d deffo fit great big b*st*rd brakes if I did.