ProMAX Level 4

[Fen]

I think the 3.2 kit "over 400bhp" undersells the product slightly - I bet with aggressive ancillaries (as let's face it Paul's car is pretty standard in this regard with the orginal exhaust even) it could be well over 400bhp with a tonne of torque everywhere, plus it comes with a brand new engine included. If you rebuilt the engine to give you a level playing field the 3.2 would look pretty cost-effective.

As an aside am I right in thinking there is only 1 ProMax level 4 kit running?

 

[sawood12]

You're right Fen - the 3.2 ltr option is turns the engine into a completely different animal. I think what I was trying to do was to demonstrate the ramp up in costs as you start chasing power, but I think it would be fair to say that after the engine rebuild at around £10k+ you are probably looking at another £10k to install all the other items to really unlock the true potential of the motor - i'm thinking custom exhaust, stand alone EMS, custom intake manifold and many other items. Then on top of all that the gearbox/diff, wheel and suspension upgrades to give you a hope in hell of actually getting all that torque onto the road. Money no object it is the holy grail.

 

[Fen]

I agree with that - but maybe then the 3.2 base engine should be considered very cheap as 80% of the cost can be attributed to renewing and replacing worn parts? That makes the capacity increase very cost-effective as we've already seen Paul's produce big numbers with few fancy (££) components bolted to it.

Despite protestations to the contrary I cannot believe that LIL isn't faster than Mark K's car already with huge lumps of torque everywhere (it may not feel faster through being much smoother of course) and LIL is still hardly developed whereas Mark's is completely wrung out to get its performance.

In other words with a basic 3.2 you get a new engine with loads of potential to add to its already massive performance, the level 4 kit on the other hand gives you a higher-stressed bottom end that hasn't been rebuilt meaning you are accelerating wear on an already 16+ year old engine. You'll have to rebuild eventually and with £8k invested in a kit of parts would you want to go larger capacity and start again or would you just freshen the 2.5 and get the same performance again?

If you only want to get to 280-300bhp then kits are the way to go if your basic engine is sound, but if you want the really big numbers then I can say I've been down the 2.5 bolt-on route before and I wouldn't do it again.

 

[333pg333]

I think that encapsulates it pretty well. Up to a certain point you can just bolt on parts with some margin built in by Porsche all those years ago. How much hp is safe, who knows? How high are you going to rev it and how often, who knows? What sort of condition are your internals, who knows? What sort of oil has this engine had all it's life, who knows? Etc, etc...
There are lots of people with bolt on kits that are satisfied customers all around the world. They can work pretty well and provide a really good fast car. If you want something a little more powerful and reliable then doing the 3.2L or even 3.4L, run lower boost most of the time. Have buckets of tq which will provide you with most of your thrills, and have a car that will last you for some 16+ years again. Money well spent.
If you want to make it go faster then increase the VE, and to steal something from Colin Chapman,
"Add lightness". You know when you have someone in the passengers seat and you can feel the difference with the extra weight, especially when the get out, well remove a few hundred pounds from your car and have that lighter, more responsive feeling all the time.

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333
If you want to make it go faster then increase the VE, and to steal something from Colin Chapman,
"Add lightness". You know when you have someone in the passengers seat and you can feel the difference with the extra weight, especially when the get out, well remove a few hundred pounds from your car and have that lighter, more responsive feeling all the time.

Or you could take that argument even further, spend some time & money learning how to make the most of what you've got[]. Money well spent & it'll work on your next car too, and the one after that...

This debate is about engine mods though, you can remove weight from or drive better in any car & the performance increase for the money will always outweigh any engine mods.

I think the last few posts seem to have boiled down to whether it's better to sort the rest of the car out before or after increasing the stresses on it and it's very obviously wiser to make sure the rest of the car (tyres, brakes, driveshafts, gearbox, clutch, bottom end and so on) can handle the extra stress (stuff doesn't necessarily need to be changed, just needs to be confirmed to be up to the job) before adding to it regardless of how much or little you change.

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: Fen

In other words with a basic 3.2 you get a new engine with loads of potential to add to its already massive performance, the level 4 kit on the other hand gives you a higher-stressed bottom end that hasn't been rebuilt meaning you are accelerating wear on an already 16+ year old engine. You'll have to rebuild eventually and with £8k invested in a kit of parts would you want to go larger capacity and start again or would you just freshen the 2.5 and get the same performance again?

If you only want to get to 280-300bhp then kits are the way to go if your basic engine is sound, but if you want the really big numbers then I can say I've been down the 2.5 bolt-on route before and I wouldn't do it again.

I think this is a really good and realistic overview of what I've learnt so far with 944 tuning. With all the cars I've been in I think the sensible (and cost effective) invisible ceiling for bolt on performance for a 944 turbo is somewhere between 300-350hp. There are people who push more power than that out of the engine but you either need to spend money to the point that it fast becomes uneconomical or sacrifice the cars torque and drivability to push high figures at top end which in practice isn't really going to make the car any faster than a 350bhp car (as proven with the FQ 400 Evolution which was in reality not as quick as the FQ 350 because it had no mid range power or torque).

We are however very lucky in that thanks to a few enthusiasts, Jon M, John Vittesse, Simon P and select others around the world, who have a passion beyond economical reason for our cars. There are various options still emerging for our cars which remove many of the limitations of the all aluminium, open deck original block which clearly isn't designed to support high boost levels.

With the massive internal strength and additional capacity provided by the 3.2 engines (for example) the boundaries of our cars have just been moved again allowing for new levels of tuning and performance. A future for 944's which have the capacity to produce vastly more power and more torque through more of the rev range than ever before will ensure that our aging underdog 944's will still be capable of scaring the latest track machinery way into the foreseeable future and should be pretty good fun to drive too

Regards,

Ben

 

[SimonP]

Ben,
Remember that little 'test drive' I took you on in my car at the Silverstone rolling road day?
Says it all really

 

[Hilux]

Anyone know how much it would cost to buy a 3.2 fitted & running (regardless of specific power)? Jon?

The article on my engine in 911&P World finally let the cat out of the bag and to have a blueprinted 3.2 like mine you are looking at £10,500 just for the engine in a crate.

 

[Hilux]

S`mine [8D] I still personally think the torque curve is nearer the optimum for my preferences. I`d just like the same graphs ................but higher [8|][8|]

Where`s Pauls for comparison?

S`interesting but the torque nosedives at 5750 and at peak revs is the same as mine (if projected) so I dont feel that it would be a huge amount quicker through the gears. Deffo needs more air in and out to see the real benefit IMHO

S`impressive, its like a race car and must be blinding above 5252 rpm but must bog down with lag, lack of grunt if out of the right gear?

 

[MarkK]

Thats my graph turns up all over the place[]I am getting her back at the end of the week after a vist to the Porsche bodyshop who are fixing all the stone chips at the front.Hate stonechips.So now she will be shiny shiny AND go like a stabbed rat[]

 

[Fen]

That middle graph isn't Paul's 3.2, Paul. I think it might be David Benjamin's 2.5.

 

[944Turbo]

Yes David's 2.5 at 18Psi

 

[sawood12]

Wow, the power comes in early and bleeds off. Is that because his turbo can't maintain such a high pressure at the top end of the rev range?

 

[Riverside]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

Anyone know how much it would cost to buy a 3.2 fitted & running (regardless of specific power)? Jon?

The article on my engine in 911&P World finally let the cat out of the bag and to have a blueprinted 3.2 like mine you are looking at £10,500 just for the engine in a crate.

I'm wondering what the 'on the road' price would be though. If I took my car to 9xx & asked them to give me back a working car how much would it cost? Is there anything else that would need to be uprated to suit, assuming all the standard stuff was in good order?

 

[Fen]

Paul might suggest brakes. (sorry Paul...)

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Wow, the power comes in early and bleeds off. Is that because his turbo can't maintain such a high pressure at the top end of the rev range?

Partly the standard turbo allowing the boost to drop off, partly the standard inlet system and exhaust - however mine in a similar state of tune (but with double the mileage) a bigger turbo and exhaust made more power but less peak torque.
I now have a rebuilt head and a maf and have picked upmore power and some torque but still haven't matched his peak - well not with dyno proof anyway, my car is quicker than when it last dynoed but not sure hw much.

Tony

 

[sawood12]

Wow, 18psi on a standard turbo. No wonder it bleeds off so quickly. The romantic in me sort of wants to remain at 2.5ltr and my fantasy upgrade would be a reworked head, exhaust, inlet manifold and throttle body, fancy ball-bearing turbo as small as I can get away with (my personal theory being a ball bearing turbo has a wider efficiency range) and all the other usual bells and whistles. I'd guess though that I wouldn't be far off the cost of a 3.2ltr upgrade once all that is up and running and it would be a much nicer engine to drive.

Anyone got any thoughts as to how much boost pressure and power the standard un-lined cylinder bores are good for? These seem to be the most tempramental part of the engine.

 

[944Turbo]

k26/8 (250bhp turbo) For long term running hard running personally I dont think much over 18psi is sensible but then if you have clever knock sensing like Rick you can probably go higher safely. I think 21psi is the max I would run and only for short periods (though if I dyno at 403 and the fuelling looks ok i might go higher ). You might get away with more but I think its risky, from looking at failures on rennlist etc. You could suffer a failure at 15psi if you get the fuelling/ignition wrong.
Tony

 

[Fen]

I think you want a big turbo if you go ball bearing, Scott. My thinking being the bearings make spooling easier so masking the inertia of the big blower a little.

I was running 22psi and I don't think it was the boost that made mine go pop so much as the forces caused by the boost if you know what I mean. Regardless it wasn't the bore that failed it was the piston (or the rod, but I favour the piston idea).

 

[nick_968]

I am not sure I agree with the school of thought that the lined versus unlined gives you capacity to run more boost on larger engines....the bigger the capacity of the engine, the more air you can process, once you start getting into high boost (22psi upwards) you are asking a lot of such a big engine and will start to run into problems such as keeping the head on the block!

Normal 2.5 944 turbo engines can run in the 22psi range without problems with the right accessories and tuning and I am pretty sure my 3.0 can as well but much more than that and it wont be the liners or the block that will be the first thing to go. If you want to run ultra high boost you are better off sticking to the 2.5 the way I understand it?