The £45k LHD 64RS

[Jamie Summers]

Anyone have strong views on what things like Motec do for values ? (I will put my hand up and admit to more than a little self interest here as my car has Motec and is about to undergo the "plus one" upgrade !) To my mind as the Motec work is totally reversible (and I have all the original parts should anyone ever wish to replace it) it shouldn't really have any effect on value, though I wouldn't necessarily expect a premium to reflect the cost of the work, and I do appreciate that it may somewhat narrow the potential market as it is indisputably a "modified" car. Be interested to hear any thoughts on this (no I'm not selling before anyone gets excited !)

Jamie

 

[SimonExtreme]

Difficult one, Jamie. I think that in the long term, originality will count so hang onto the original parts. What tends to happen is that the upgrades aren't valued as such and it is unlikely that your car will be worth more with the MoTec +1. However, so long as you have the original parts, MoTec won't harm the value. I do wonder about the +1, as it's no longer the original spec cam, heads etc. I wonder how the car would run with the engine work and the old Motronic DME. If it still ran OK, then I really don't see a problem.

Paul Mac has had a few cars with interesting engine mods and aksed big money, but most of them have a long history and are from a well known tuner of the era.

 

[Jamie Summers]

Simon, I agree entirely about the originality aspect and would not dream of getting rid of the original parts taken off the car (even have the original steering wheel wrapped up neatly - still using original Blaupunkt Symphony though someone has put aftermarket speakers in including separate tweeters which I'm not very happy about, but that was long before my time and not worth getting too bothered about !).
I had the same concern about the "plus one" and I suspect that it may not run too well if I was to put it back on Motronic, and I'm wondering whether by leaving the cams out of the package (perfectly possible according to Colin) one might be able to put it back to Motronic should that ever be wanted and preserve a bit more originality. I did ask Colin if a "plus one" would run on Motronic, and he said that he tought it would but didn't know how well - presumably has never been tried. I would have thought that at the very least the Motronic would need to be re-mapped and it wouldn't run the same power as on Motec. Does a car with re-mapped Motronic and some head work count as original ????? Frankly I think that it's not worth losing too much sleep over. As the car is not a concours garage queen and gets used as its maker intended it's never going to be the type of car that someone would put into a museum collection, but as an original panel, structurally straight, car it should always attract fair money (for as long as it stays that way !!!!)

Jamie (bored at work !!!!)

 

[Melv]

Fact:- maritime immaculate left hooker went for £45K -Des and I have seen it -could be a rare virgin....

100K kms left -hooker sold for £40K -respray, cage, hot film...........very yellow![] I know -I delivered it to it's new owner this week.......

When I was looking six years ago they were going for £25K.....[]

 

[964rsdatabase]

MCP Motorsport have a LHD Amethyst car with 18,500 miles.

Asking price - £53k

 

[OllieW]

That £53k car doesn't even have the original 17" mags!!!

http://www.mcp-motorsport.com/CurrentStock/stock.asp

Perhaps I need to insure my RHD for a little more than I have done

 

[lee fulford]

Des/Melv...think I need you to do a new valuation cert and get it off to my Insurers.

Melv...I bought mine 6-7 yrs ago for £26k.....so you're spot on .....again

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Crikey!

 

[ChrisW]

Motec 1 --- here's an interesting question.

I have a 993 with a 1995 X51 964 3.8 engine conversion which is supposed to be the 3.8 964RS engine. It's rated out of the box at 285BHP and it's pre-varioram (of course).

Let us suppose a regularly tracked car with a totally honourable history required a new heart --- and this engine was the replacement.

What would be the effect on the value of the car ?

 

[SimonExtreme]

Some really interesting points about future values and what might influence that value. However, before thinking more on that, it's probably worth reflecting on the fact that almost all of us have been fortunate to buy our cars at reasonable prices. We are wondering about what will happen in a few years time when, hopefully, the cars have gone up even more. Let's look at 5 years time and say there is a difference in value of £5-10K between a 100% original and a car with "sympathetic" upgrades. My first reaction is that the upgrades have cost an additional £1-2K per year BUT, this is appreciation, not devaluation and I am sure that the increase in value will still be very pleasing! After all, I don't think many of us have bought the cars as an investment.

Therefore, I think for most of us, MoTec +1 is not an issue. Let's say I bought a car for £38,500, spent £8000 on Motec +1, kept it 5 years and it was worth £65,000, I would be happy, even if a totally original car was worth £5,000 more.

The issue is for the guys spending £45-50K on a car. For them, it is harder to justify doing this sort of irreversable work.

As for Chris's question, that is a hard one to answer. If it had that engine fitted 10 years ago and the car has an interesting history, I think it is OK. GT Classics has such a car, that has been extensively upgraded, but it seems to have taken a little longer to sell (more than the nanosecond that most of his stock lasts ). However, I suspect that if it were done today, it would effect the value of the car. Having said that, if the engine is genuine, I suspect you actually have a rather valuable engine! If somebody has a 3.8 964RS which blows it's engine, this would be what they need to preserve a lot of value. I would guess that the difference in value between them fitting a genuine 3.8RS engine and a rebuilt engine to that spec would be a fair amount of money, say £10,000. Add that to the cost of rebuilding a normal engine and you could easily value that engine at between £15K and £20K, if genuine!!! (Just my opinion)

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: lee fulford

Des/Melv...think I need you to do a new valuation cert and get it off to my Insurers.

Melv...I bought mine 6-7 yrs ago for £26k.....so you're spot on .....again

I remember a reasonable LHD Lightweight car would stick around £22,000 about 8 years back, similar car now £35-£40........With the lack of stock about the supply and demand will harden prices further and a new season upon us....[]

Picture of a Virgin.... One of the best I've seen, completely original £££££££+

 

[lowndes]

If Mel and Des keeps saying nice things about the old girl I'd better break cover.

In October last year I decided to get a track day car. I've had Porsches since 1974 but (hangs head in shame) before last year would not have recognised a 964RS at the time for what it was. To some extent that ignorance was a blessing because at least I knew what I didn't know, and I knew I needed expert advice.

I left the search to Paul at GT Classics but with the brief to buy on condition not price. Price really only works in a market where there is a large supply and what became clear at the outset was that the number of cars without history is not large. Therefore when a clean car came up the price was really dictated by what the seller was prepared to accept not what I was prepared to pay.

A good deal is one where both sides think they have done well and for my part I'm happy.

But here's the corollary. If someone offered me £50k for the car I wouldn't take.

Nick

 

[SimonExtreme]

Nick

Well done on finding the car. It looks great. As you say, if both seller and buyer are happy, it's a great deal.

The interesting thing to me is that the demand is from real enthusiasts, not investors, as you comment about not taking £50K shows. And that is why the price will keep rising, because the people who buy them love them and won't be parted, or at least not just for money. look at me - I took the car all the way to Oz!

 

[Melv]

ORIGINAL: lee fulford
Melv...I bought mine 6-7 yrs ago for £26k.....so you're spot on .....again

Natch![]

 

[jason]

I think there is far too much emphasis on originality in this thread. Yes fine for the very boring investors who stick them in the garage never to be seen again but of all of us that use them how many of us really want a low mileage standard car with no strut bar, cage, cup pipe, change of s.wheel etc etc etc

A car that has some minor mods (maybe Motec) and a stone chipped front bumper is worth more to me. Why? Because I don't have to spend even more doing the mods we will all do and if its not concourse I won't wrestle with my conscience on whether or not I should even use the thing.

It must be a great feeling when you come to sell your car knowing you have got an extra few £k for it as you have kept it pristine by not using it, polishing it religiously and then putting it back in the garage.

NOT!

 

[OllieW]

Totally agree with you Jason, and believe that stone chips add character to what is an already aggressive natured car but there will always be an element of enthusiasts/collectors out there that will want an unmollested car to stick in their very expensive garage complex as it enables them to justify owning the car to their friends/piers.

Look at the amount of exotica in the past that have ended up being unused and left to stand without turning a wheel in anger.

FREE THE RS's...

 

[jason]

I feel a campaign coming on!

Did anyone see Jason Plato's interview in 911 & PW....now he has the right idea (or is he just a lazy scruffy oaf[])

 

[SimonExtreme]

Jason

I think you are missing the point. A car being original doesn't mean not having stone chips. I have a totally repainted car with 2 stone chips, 3 months later. And "strut bar, cage, cup pipe, change of s.wheel" were all offered by Porsche. I doubt sympathetic upgrades will ever effect the value. However, what people value is the original feel of the car. Add too much power, change the brakes, upgrade suspension etc and it simply loses that. Otherwise, why don't we all just buy C2's and do the upgrades we want.......as Ninemeister is doing. In fact, it is now definately worth taking a C2 and turning it into an RS.

 

[lee fulford]

ORIGINAL: SimonExtreme

Jason

I think you are missing the point. A car being original doesn't mean not having stone chips. I have a totally repainted car with 2 stone chips, 3 months later. And "strut bar, cage, cup pipe, change of s.wheel" were all offered by Porsche. I doubt sympathetic upgrades will ever effect the value. However, what people value is the original feel of the car. Add too much power, change the brakes, upgrade suspension etc and it simply loses that..

You're right Simon.......It has to remain the original car in essence.

If my car had high mileage and had sustained a sausage at some point their is no doubt I'd be using it and tracking it more often. The problem is that it has low miles and is a tidy car, but that's because it's the way I like my cars.....It has to be looking it's best but I HATE cleaning cars so it doesn't get used much.

 

[carreraboy]

Use it or lose it Lee![]