The answer for RMS problems?

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Scouser

Well this guy from the Customer Relations Dept at Reading made it very clear to me that
PAG are PAG and Porsche UK are Porsche UK and the only relationship is that they both make money
out of each other. The same can be said about the dealerships. They are just franchises. A lot
less technically skilled than the independents but they have the stamp of approval to toute the name PORSCHE.

This really puzzled me so here is the official version from Porsche GB themsleves i have included the link

http://www2.uk.porsche.com/english/gbr/company/pcgbltd/default.htm

and the following words


Porsche Cars Great Britain Limited is the sole UK importer of Porsche cars and is wholly owned by Porsche AG in Stuttgart. The UK is the third largest market for Porsche in the world, second only to Germany and the USA. Porsche has been in Reading since 1977, and in its current location at Calcot since 1985

So what is this guy at customer service on about????
Berny you sure this guy even works for the same Porsche that build our cars???[]

 

[oliver]

It doesn't necessarily follow that Porsche Cars Great Britain are accountable for a car that was supplied outside the UK.

OK, most of us would excpect them to fascilitate on behalf of the parent company, but it may be one of the disadvantages of buying a non-UK supplied car that any issues have to be addressed through different avenues.

Under the sale of goods act, it is normal practice to pursue the retailer not the manufacturer.

 

[NicD]

Oliver, Mahen,

yes seems obvious. Porsche AG are the parent of Porsche GB, they build the cars and set the guidelines. Porsche GB are not responsible for cars they didnt sell, but will administrate warranty claims for these, on behalf of Porsche AG.

what they wont do, is make goodwill gestures for cars they didnt sell, the owner has to go back to the supplying organisation. Seems reasonable, unless over riding reasons exist.

By the way, all buyers of non UK supplied cars reduce the residual values of UK supplied ones, since Porsche GB manage the waiting lists to maintain residuals. Non C16 cars further cause problems for future buyers since not all parts are readily available and some specific UK specifications (alarm, battery, windscreen top tint) may be missng.

 

[NicD]

Perhaps I'm being too simple here. The manufacturer either stands by their products, or they don't.

John,

yes, you are being too simplistic. See my post above. This exposes the risk of buying a non UK supplied car - its not easy to access the responsible body.
If you want to go to court, you have to establish the responsibility.

btw, I am NOT saying I agree or approve of this, just that this is the case. I feel Porsche AG should be MUCH more responsive to these issues, but I have finally accepted that I, and the Club can do little more here.

 

[Guest]

Nic, Oliver

All i was trying to say is that PGB told berny that they are not part of PorscheAG, this was a total misrepresentation. By their own admission PGB have said that they are PAG

Before we get into legal arguments and i give too much away "wholly owned by Porsche AG in Stuttgart" by definition makes PAG not the parent company of PGB. PGB now becomes, if you will a branch of PAG. Thus PAG can not legally claim that it has no responsiblity for PGB or PGB claim they have no responsiblity for PAG becaue in law they are one and the same company. Probably the best example of this sort of cooperate legal structure is SHELL who have offices all over the world.

I do agree that cars not supplied by PGB are not really their responsiblity, but if you wish to take PAG to court, within european law, you can in effect choose to do so in the UK and PGB can then come and defend itself as the arm of PAG.

 

[38F3E1]

ORIGINAL: NicD

..... since Porsche GB manage the waiting lists to maintain residuals .....

Where did you get that from?

Man walks into dealer ... says 'I would like a new Porsche please and I have 70K in cash' .... dealer says 'sorry sir we're restricting supply to maintain residuals'.

Pleeeeaseee. Get real. Far to simplistic but nice marketing spin. Do some research on the economics of building manufacturing supply capacity and lifetime of product.

 

[Mark_Bennett]

Sorry Ian, that's the way it is.
You don't get told supply is restricted, you get told how long the waiting list is.
If you have a face that fits at the dealer, the list might be shorter, but in any case "we have this lovely 6 month old one you can buy whilst you are waiting for your order to come through..."

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: n4das

Nic, Oliver

All i was trying to say is that PGB told berny that they are not part of PorscheAG, this was a total misrepresentation. By their own admission PGB have said that they are PAG

Before we get into legal arguments and i give too much away "wholly owned by Porsche AG in Stuttgart" by definition makes PAG not the parent company of PGB. PGB now becomes, if you will a branch of PAG. Thus PAG can not legally claim that it has no responsiblity for PGB or PGB claim they have no responsiblity for PAG becaue in law they are one and the same company. Probably the best example of this sort of cooperate legal structure is SHELL who have offices all over the world.

I do agree that cars not supplied by PGB are not really their responsiblity, but if you wish to take PAG to court, within european law, you can in effect choose to do so in the UK and PGB can then come and defend itself as the arm of PAG.

I echo exactly what Dr. Mahen has said here except the last sentence: No matter where the car is purchased the responsibility in the case of faulty workmanship is with the manufacturer.....that's PAG......and that as you have read is Porscche UK.


Nic how would you account for this: I called Germany yesterday directly and spoke to Annett Barbara Wilke who I believe is the responsible person for worldwide service decisions in PAG. She was extremely accomodating and listened with great interest to my problems. She even said that she can understand why I have called her directly and that had it been her in my situation she would have done exactly the same. She was fully understanding of my situation and very appologetic. She said she would speak to Porsche UK to see if another solution can be arranged BUT, she warned me emphatically that the decision will ultimately lie with Porsche UK. If Porsche UK say they can't help then that will also be her decision. She said she cannot overrule Porsche UK's decision. I already know what Porsche UK are going to say and so do you! So the result is now this: Porsche UK have basically said "it's not our problem so go away" and Porsche PAG have said go back to Porsche UK. There's no simplicity here, Porsche do not stand by their customers.........unless your car is within warranty. But once you step outside that warranty you're totally on your own.

 

[38F3E1]

ORIGINAL: Mark Bennett

Sorry Ian, that's the way it is.
You don't get told supply is restricted, you get told how long the waiting list is.
If you have a face that fits at the dealer, the list might be shorter, but in any case "we have this lovely 6 month old one you can buy whilst you are waiting for your order to come through..."

You miss the point of my statement completely. I didn't say that supply was not restricted. The only statement I made was that supply is not restricted to maintain residuals, as was stated by Nic, but that it is due to the business ecomomics of manufacturing a model of car over say a 5 year lifecycle before replacement, specifically the cost of providing manufacturing capacity.

Anyhow this subject seems a little off topic for the thread.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: ian_uk

Anyhow this subject seems a little off topic for the thread.

Ian

Quite agree - can we start another thread please on this topic and also how PCGB (Porsche Cars GB). PCA etc 'sits' with PAG in order that we might have a clearer understanding?

 

[NicD]

Berny,

who supplied the car? that is who has the responsibility in law. In raw facts, it is quite simple. If the car came from Cyprus or Finland, go back to the distributor there, or where ever. they may say, well the OPC in the UK has worked on it, so go there, and then you are on a god awful merry go round. Nightmare. this is the contra for the initial cost saving (if there was one)

The only hope (imho) with AG is to shame them into acting, but if you have a 50% goodwill offer already, I think that has kicked in

 

[NicD]

You miss the point of my statement completely. I didn't say that supply was not restricted. The only statement I made was that supply is not restricted to maintain residuals, as was stated by Nic, but that it is due to the business ecomomics of manufacturing a model of car over say a 5 year lifecycle before replacement, specifically the cost of providing manufacturing capacity.

and your source is?

My source of above is the representative of Porsche GB. Of course, he could be making it up. Porsche spend a lot of time thinking about an orderly market for their product, where owners are happy to upgrade and progress through the range.
Of course manufacturing realities play a part, but residuals are very important.

 

[Mark_Bennett]

ORIGINAL: ian_uk

ORIGINAL: Mark Bennett

Sorry Ian, that's the way it is.
You don't get told supply is restricted, you get told how long the waiting list is.
If you have a face that fits at the dealer, the list might be shorter, but in any case "we have this lovely 6 month old one you can buy whilst you are waiting for your order to come through..."

You miss the point of my statement completely. I didn't say that supply was not restricted. The only statement I made was that supply is not restricted to maintain residuals, as was stated by Nic, but that it is due to the business ecomomics of manufacturing a model of car over say a 5 year lifecycle before replacement, specifically the cost of providing manufacturing capacity.

Anyhow this subject seems a little off topic for the thread.

I wish I could split this out to another thread, but that ability does not exist unfortunately.


Having spoken to several people at the factory and the dealers over the years it has been made clear that maintaining resuiduals is VERY important to Porsche. Supply and residuals go hand-in-hand.
Porsche have several reasons for doing so, including:
To maintain a guaranteed backorder of orders - it's nice to know the next years production is already sold! (They could make more by adding another shift, or making more cars in Ussikaupunki, but that holds the danger of a small shift down in the market having terrible effects on production),
By maintaining a waiting list the newer "used" cars hold a higher value - for those that just can't wait!

They have plenty of spare capacity - Valmet at Ussikaupunki can easily make 996/7's as well as the Boxster, but Porsche want to leave capacity at about 160 cars a day at Zuffenhausen, and a further 80 or so at Valmet (who can make 160 a day as well - as they did when Saab were using them to April 2003)

And then there is a plant at Leipzig with lots of spare ground around ready for units to be constructed for the 4th model... Which could be used on 997/987 production

 

[Guest]

Latest news. Was contacted yesterday by Porsche GB. They said they have now agreed to
absorb the cost of taking down my gearbox to inspect the RMS tolerance using the correct mandrel tool and with a view to
repairing/replacing the RMS. This won't cost me anything.......well that's not quite true.
Since the gearbox is down we might as well replace it, except I have to foot 50% the cost for a new one. So I plan to pay for it and then deal with the legalities to claim it back. Might as well get my car back to a good state.
Of course, there is also the issue of what happens if they find the engine block RMS tolerance on my engine is fubar.
In this case they said they will have to revisit that situation if they come to it.....hmmmm....the good-will situation again.
With the number of RMS seals my engine goes through I can't imagine them finding it to be a goodun. The engine
surely must be hosed. So I guess there will be more cost again..... ho hum......they just might bankrupt me....another happy customer. NOT!

 

[GreigM]

Berny,

you should maybe ask for the measurements to see if the engine falls outwith the tolerance for a new engine in the USA - if it does, and given the number of seals you've had already I would think there is a good legal case to claim that the defect was present since manufacture, and the engine should be replaced under the sales of goods act.

whatever, good luck...

 

[Guest]

Good one GreigM. I will do just that. Cheers.

Adrian, don't tempt me []

 

[Guest]

Berny

Good news and pleased to see movement with PCGB helping out one of their customers!

Of course other members can follow on afterwards and hopefully get the same treatment - subject of course to Porsche GB not sticking a 'don't tell anyone what we have done clause' on you or am I being a tad cynical now []

 

[Peter_Bull]

inspect the RMS tolerance using the correct mandrel tool and with a view to
repairing/replacing the RMS.

Hi Scouser
I really do feel desperately sorry for yourself and all who have had RMS problems. What a nightmare. As a die hard Porsche enthusiast it makes me go cold just to think of what may lay ahead for ALL Porsche residuals, let alone the ongoing expense for 986/996 owners to repair the RMS each time it leaks.

Being cynical, I would also ask that when they measure the tolerances, that you have your own independent engineer there to verify what they find. It would only take a few minutes and at least you can have the peace of mind that there are no 'inaccurate' measurements taken - if you get my drift!!

I have been following this thread avidly at least twice a day and it's got me quite worried about my car.

I cancelled my order for a new model Boxster S (due Feb '05) as I had the opportunity (2 months ago) to buy a Sept 2000 996 had done just 950 miles (yes honestly) from a family member. To me it was an easy choice and an opportunity to get into modern Porsche motoring with the definitive icon of Porsche - the 911.

It's now out of warranty - so I wonder what goodwill I would get now should I experience an RMS failure at this low mileage!

 

[daro911]

[]Don't want to pour oil on troubled RMS's but can PCGB yet confirm if the "new 987 & 997" models will be RMS trouble free Porsches or is this thread set to run and run [:-]

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Nigel Cooper

Good news and pleased to see movement with PCGB helping out one of their customers!

Of course other members can follow on afterwards and hopefully get the same treatment - subject of course to Porsche GB not sticking a 'don't tell anyone what we have done clause' on you or am I being a tad cynical now []

I am not sure that PGB have actually HELPED Berny just yet. He may still have to replace his engine and gear box mostly out of his own pocket for a latent defect on the car.

Also if PGB were to follow their policy of "looking at each case individually" then they may take time to realize that the issues with Bernys car will only devalue the marque and not not help customer confidence. This is not just in the country but worldwide. I know for a fact that this thread has been viewed all over the world is that what PGB want.