The suspension saga continues - Bilstein Escort Cup ?

[Hilux]

A comparison picture.

Mine is on KWV3 as set up by Promax who (from experience) also recommend a 10mm nose down attitude

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

Just remembered I have the original sales brochure for my car and here's a scan that hopefully shows just how high these cars were from the factory. Obviously a dedicated track car with a KW setup whose primary useage is trackwork will benefit from substantial lowering (subject to the balljoints), but my own car is mainly road with the odd trackday when funds allow.

Looks like a 4x4 now haha. How is your car now Paul anyway? Hope it's going great. Do some more videos please.
Back to the program, sorry.[]

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: Fen

This is a side-on of mine with KW. I have to say I'm not sure what you mean about inner wings being polished, Steve - they should all be the same and I've never heard of that before.

That looks about as low as you can go there Fen. Nice though!

 

[steve 944t]

ORIGINAL: Fen

I have to say I'm not sure what you mean about inner wings being polished, Steve - they should all be the same and I've never heard of that before.

Having had a good look yesterday with the wheel off I must confess that what I thought was a shiny bit of inner wing caused by tyre contact isnt [:-]. In fact, for the tyre to hit that particular part of the inner wing would be impossible. So please ignore my comments and move along. Old age is a terrible thing [&o]

 

[944psi]

Just reading through this and glad to see that some other 944s riding seemingly high have been 'outed', I am not so worried now although I am still thinking about future changes to even up the stiffness of my front and rear end. (see the other long running suspension thread for my pics)

Just an observation : the issue with the KW appears to be that you need to have your TBs re-indexed which, from looking at the instructions, seems a lot of hassle and if you are not doing it yourself, then high on the labour costs.

Looking around I spotted this Weight Optimized Ball Bearing Rear Axle which deletes the TBs and relies on the coilovers for the rear ride height. Has anyone considered these or are they too harsh for a road car? At around £750 they're not cheap, but then I'm of the opinion that I would rather spend money on replacing parts than on labour.

Phil

 

[mike220]

All this talk about height has made me start to question whether the front of mine has standard springs or not ? As it looks lower than a few shown here . . . . . . . . .just a further mental complication to my thought process lol

Mike

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: 944psi

Just reading through this and glad to see that some other 944s riding seemingly high have been 'outed', I am not so worried now although I am still thinking about future changes to even up the stiffness of my front and rear end. (see the other long running suspension thread for my pics)

Just an observation : the issue with the KW appears to be that you need to have your TBs re-indexed which, from looking at the instructions, seems a lot of hassle and if you are not doing it yourself, then high on the labour costs.

Looking around I spotted this Weight Optimized Ball Bearing Rear Axle which deletes the TBs and relies on the coilovers for the rear ride height. Has anyone considered these or are they too harsh for a road car? At around £750 they're not cheap, but then I'm of the opinion that I would rather spend money on replacing parts than on labour.

Phil

Clearly something like this and the similar product that Kokeln do is an upgraded axel mainly for race purposes for ease of setup and weight reduction. Certainly getting a specialist to carry out a simple re-index of your TB's is cheaper than this (about 8 - 10 hrs for someone experienced at the job) so is cheaper than replacing the axel. You can run without TB's with the stock axel but what's the point unless you want the height adjustability?

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: mike220

All this talk about height has made me start to question whether the front of mine has standard springs or not ? As it looks lower than a few shown here . . . . . . . . .just a further mental complication to my thought process lol

Mike

Not if its an 86 turbo (ISTR you have an early turbo). Trefs car looks only marginally higher then my S2 for example which is about 1" lower then stock. S2's especially look jacked up on standard springs, its possible that with a 20 yr old car the springs and torsion bars have sagged putting the car 1/2" or so lower.

 

[stevespic]

Whats sort of prices have people paid for the torsion bar re-indexing, including all the parts which might as well be replaced while your in there ? i was under the impression it would be around 7 to 800 quid which would make the Weight Optimized Ball Bearing Rear Axle around the same price if i fitted it my self...

 

[sawood12]

A specialist who has done the job before should be able to do it in 8 - 10hrs. All the parts at risk of needing replacing are valid for both options, e.g. brake and fuel lines, rubber axel mounts etc, and you'd need a re-align in both cases, so just for the re-indexing vs replacement you are looking at upto £600ish (though might be able to bring it in for a bit less) vs. the £750 or so for the revised axel, but by the time you've factored in shipping costs (an axel is a bulky and heavy item) and any import duty you might get stung with you are probably looking closer to £1000. Also don't forget you would need to uprate the rear springs on whatever suspension system you elected to go for as you wont have the extra spring force of the TB's. But clearly a better engineered solution.

I'd like to go for it in theory but apart from the ease of height adjustability what would I really get? I'm not so sure i'd really notice the difference in terms of the drive, and by the time you nett off the weight saving of deleting the TB's but adding coil-overs it'd be cheaper for you to go on a bit of a diet and loosing a few lb's. So you are not saving a great deal at the end of the day.

 

[stevespic]

Dose the KW v3 kit come as a coil over on the rear as well as the front and if so would this spring not be hard enough to surport the rear of the car ? as for the other option Shipping on the item would be costly as they want the old one in exchange but it would be a good excuse to have a long weekend round trip to the ring...[] then the import duty might get a miss as well.

 

[sawood12]

Yes, the v3 has rear coil-overs (see picture). However if you remove TB's you'd need to compensate by increasing coil over spring rate therefore you'd need to specify that with KW. Not sure if this would incurr an extra charge, maybe not as they'll no doubt have stiffer springs in stock and when they built your kit they'd just substitute with a different spring.

Clearly this is the best technical option so if you can pick the axel up on your way to the ring then great.

 

[stevespic]

Thanks for the Info Scott and Phil, my brain is realy doing over time now... I have to say though Scott you could of painted that drive shaft before the photo shoot...[][][]...

 

[944psi]

I thought that the suppliers of the rear axle had a UK rep based in Cheshire. Think they are a sponsor on Rennlist.

When fitting the KW V3 why do you have to re-index the TBs? In my simplistic thinking this must be because the TBs will in some way negate the effects of the coil springs as the TBs will take some of the load. So where the coil overs have been fitted and the TBs re-indexed, will the TBs be superfluous? (sorry for the thicko questions, but these questions trouble me [])

Phil

 

[Fen]

The TB and coil springs work as a combination. The coil spring is intended to be preloaded to a degree and if you don't reindex the torsion bars then in order to put enough of the weight of the car through the coil to properly preload it you would not get a low enough ride height. The TB still does some work when reindexed though.

 

[appletonn]

ORIGINAL: Fen

The TB and coil springs work as a combination. The coil spring is intended to be preloaded to a degree and if you don't reindex the torsion bars then in order to put enough of the weight of the car through the coil to properly preload it you would not get a low enough ride height. The TB still does some work when reindexed though.

That's exactly how it was explained to me about the Bilstein Cup kit on mine - the rear was reindexed and the coil springs on the rear were described as 'helper' springs.

The rear is certainly fairly low.

 

[944psi]

Thanks Fen & Nick. That's a couple more knowledge holes plugged!

Was just looking at Clark's Garage and found a good article on 924/944/968 suspension including the spring rates for the front springs, TBs etc.

Phil

 

[Big Dave]

Flippin heck. Im beggining to lose the will to live..[8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|]
The link off the clarks site, ide RECOMEND you READ it FULLY a few times. And let it sink in...
Then read it some more...
There are a few other links from the clarks web site that are REALY usefull when contemplating the set up on these cars...
Also try looking on 968forums.com in the USA, they have been down this route, lots.

First thing to think about, is WHAT are you using the car for.???
Road use.??
Track days
OR
Full race.

Then fit the correct kit according to use..

The T bar delete kit is REALY for race use only...
I know of one chap that fitted the Kokeln delete kit. Aparently it was REAL pain to get right...And he hads to wait ages for it, as they [ Kokeln] dont sell many of them...
It is also VERY harsh, ie NO rubber bushing at all. The car also was a real handfull in the wet, GREAT in the dry , but it had serious snap oversteer in the wet....[How do i know,?? I drove it.]...
He since sold it.....Speaks volumes realy....

 

[frogisland]

ORIGINAL: Big Dave UK

.....but it had serious snap oversteer in the wet....[How do i know,?? I drove it.]...

you're getting soft Dave .....you'll be wanting aircon next []

It took too much weight off the back / was not balanced sufficiently with the front (mind you, after the weight loss programme it could have been a beaut...but i think it scared the owner [])

Agree with Dave, too much discussion and cirlcles.......just buy Bilstein and have done with it....can recommend a good set-up [] Will give the KW boys a run for their money.

JP

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: spic01

Thanks for the Info Scott and Phil, my brain is realy doing over time now... I have to say though Scott you could of painted that drive shaft before the photo shoot...[][][]...

Yes I agree but I couldn't decide on yellow or purple to go with the KW! But the drive shafts are powder coated and I did look into replacing them but all the 2nd hand ones I looked at in a similar state.

ORIGINAL: 944psi
I thought that the suppliers of the rear axle had a UK rep based in Cheshire. Think they are a sponsor on Rennlist.

Yes but his partner is based in Switzerland and I think he is the chap with the handy hands and seems to make everything or have everything made. They price their products in Euro's instead of Swiss money (is it still the Swiss Franc?). I'm not sure what the setup is but that is the impression I get from the threads on Rennlist.

ORIGINAL: appletonn
That's exactly how it was explained to me about the Bilstein Cup kit on mine - the rear was reindexed and the coil springs on the rear were described as 'helper' springs.

The rear is certainly fairly low.

Yes, that is why you simply can't always get away with adjustment on the eccentrics. It is important that the motion of the wheel is controlled by both springs when it is going up and down. If your car is at stock height then there isn't enough adjustment in the eccentrics. The way it was explained to me is that when the car is in the air the rear swing arms are at a position where the TB is unloaded. You re-index the TB's such that the coilovers can be intalled so both springs are unloaded so when the car is on the ground the weight is shared between the TB and the coilovers at the intended height such that the TB's and coilovers work in unison in both compression and extention - i.e. so if the road dips, like a pot hole, the coil over doesn't limit the drop of the wheel into the depression in the road. If you simply adjusted via the eccentrics then your TB's would be loaded but not your coilovers and if you went over a pothole the wheel wouldn't be able to drop into it as the coilovers would be fully extended and the car would crash over the pothole. If the coilovers are installed as I describe then when the weight of the car is on the springs there is still movement in both directions of the wheel that is controlled by both the TB's and coilovers.

I think the phrase 'helper springs' is unhelpful and not really relevant. The forces are shared by the TB's and coilovers and the proportion of the sharing will be determined by the relative spring rates. If the relative spring rates are equal then the sharing will be 50/50. If the coilover spring is a higher rate than the TB then the coilover will take the majority of the load and visa versa.