time for a 911?

[Fen]

ORIGINAL: charles.y
Binary is just a numbering system used for modern day digital electronics which makes numbers crunching computation much easier and faster i.e. either 1s or 0s.

Binary is a numbering system but it is the one used in computers because at the lowest level of storage they can only handle on or off. On or off being digital. I knew Nick meant analogue and was only yanking his chain []

As an aside one of my favourite "smart" signature lines from a forum is "there are 10 types of people; those who understand binary and those who don't" [][]

Back on topic:

The 964 and 993 can have rust issues also, but it tends to be around the screens which is both easy to spot and hard to bodge repair effectively (and can be fixed properly so it's no longer a worry); I got the front screen corners on my 964 fixed perfectly with new metal for circa £600 - a different league to new kidney bowls. The reason they don't rust in the kidney bowls I believe is that they have plastic arch liners to stop crud buidling up in the nooks and crannies of the front of the rear wheelarch whereas the impact bumper / torsion spring cars are open under there.

If you want a C4 it will be more like an S2 than the original 911 in my experience. I took my 964 C4 to the 'Ring and after a few laps I went for a passenger lap in a mate's 3.2 Carrera. About half way round the first corner when I felt the weight transfer to the back end I realised why I wasn't so in love with the 964 as I had been with my own 3.2 - the 964 wasn't a 911 (in the way I perceive a 911, at least).

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: Fen

I'm a 911 fan, but would I buy another one? Probably not if I'm honest. I agree with those who say the 996 isn't the one (and I disagree totally it's in the spirit of the 60's 911 - OK it has 4 seats, but how HEAVY is it compared with the original, or indeed how in actually NEEDS to be?).

Well the only comparisons I can think of are the mini and golf GTI. In both cases the 996 doesn't come up that bad, ISTR a 98 C2 weighed in at 1320 Kg compared to perhaps 1000 Kg or so for pre 74 cars? Compared to modern BMWs and Ferraris the 996 positively looks like a lightweight.

BTW we/you/I have covered a lot of this material before and I think we agree on the M3 CSL. I would love one of those but they start at 25K and TBH in the current climate and possible introduction of a V8 CSL perhaps best to wait a couple of years and see which way things go.

 

[Fen]

The M3 CSL is a truly awesome car. I came very, very, very close to buying one. The difference between a CSL and a normal M3 (even with 19" wheels and SMG 'box) is utterly incredible.

In terms of the Mini and Golf GTi I think I know what you're saying. I (as a Mini owner) would think that nobody would realistically be torn between an original Cooper S from the Sixties and one from 2003- as they are patently different cars (I'd like a Sixties one, don't get me wrong, but not as a replacement for the modern one).

I would also say the same goes for a 911 - the 996 is a 911 only insofar as my Cooper S is a Mini; the high-level layout and the name.

Saying "I want a 911" is about as specific as saying "I want lunch". The original 911 was a lightweight, no frills, tactile, noisy, basic (except where it mattered in the drivetrain) handful of a car whereas the 996 is a cosseting, easy to drive, lardy, luxurious one. Both quite fast and capable for their day, but entirely different to own and drive.

I've never driven a pre-impact 911, but I understand they were more again of the fizz of the impact cars. I have owned 2 generations of impact bumper 911 (they were very similar) and a 964 C4, and I have driven several others including the 996, 930, 965, 964 C2 etc. etc. There is almost no comparison between the 964 and the 3.2 Carrera that preceeded it despite the fact they look pretty similar inside and out. Extend that either later or earlier and the difference is only going to be greater (though not massive from mid 70's to 1990 in my experience).

If as a 944 owner you think your car is tactile and gives good feedback, and you fancy a 911 then you'd be happy with a 964, 993 or possibly a 996 (depending what 911 means to you I guess). On the other hand if you want to know what tactility and feedback really are then you should drive a 3.2 Carrera or earlier 911. When I sold my 3.2 Carrera I bought my first 944 Turbo. I had it for 6 months and sold it because it was boring and felt like an ordinary car...

 

[Neil Haughey]

Horses for courses. Like someone alluded to earlier, a 996 on the Hartech warranty program makes a scarily tempting daily driver option instead of the usual heavily depreciating hatchback or saloon. Probably not such a good idea for someone doing 20K miles a year but for 6K miles of commuting it could make a lot of sense to do for a couple of years.

Funny what you say about feel. When I first got my S2 I felt bitterly let down by the soft handling and lack of sharpness/feel in comparison to the old mini I used to hack about in, however comparing to next doors E36 3 series it seemed a peach and of course with a lot of suspension mods the feel and sharpness is much better. Now if I don't drive it for a while and get back in after a few weeks in the Saab it is quite some shock. Just goes to show how much cars have changed in terms of connecting the driver with the road.

10 years ago I would have loved an old 911 but would probably have put it in a hedge. I used to find any excuse for a quick blat cross country. Now I more or less never go out for a weekend or evening blast.

 

[J.C944TurboMan]

Alright Fen , I don't get this part where you say "I had it for 6 months and sold it because it was boring and felt like an ordinary car... " As a true 944 enthusiast I would like to defend the 944 Turbo and state that it is a real beautiful car , with it's blistered arches and great body lines , the unique near perfect balance weight distribution , making the 944 and 968 one of the best driving cars ever , so if you don't like the 944's why do you come on the 944 Forum ! Why not just stick to the 911 Forum's and all of you can just go on all day about how great your cars are ! Don't get me wrong the 911 is a true icon and to some a desirable car , but I can afford a 911 but choose to own a 944 Turbo because it brings me so much joy when I dust a 911 !!! Best regards J PS. nick named 911 Eater !!!

 

[swright]

Carefull now! I got my post removed for saying almost the same as you(mind you i did go a bit further tbh[])

I can totally understand the pull of the 911 3.2 carerra. The noise of the engine is spine tinglingly good and the shape is as sexy as they come. But then so is the shape of the 44. More so in fact in my honest opinion.

Horeses for corses and each to there own i supose[]

ORIGINAL: J.C944TurboMan

Alright Fen , I don't get this part where you say "I had it for 6 months and sold it because it was boring and felt like an ordinary car... " As a true 944 enthusiast I would like to defend the 944 Turbo and state that it is a real beautiful car , with it's blistered arches and great body lines , the unique near perfect balance weight distribution , making the 944 and 968 one of the best driving cars ever , so if you don't like the 944's why do you come on the 944 Forum ! Why not just stick to the 911 Forum's and all of you can just go on all day about how great your cars are ! Don't get me wrong the 911 is a true icon and to some a desirable car , but I can afford a 911 but choose to own a 944 Turbo because it brings me so much joy when I dust a 911 !!! Best regards J PS. nick named 911 Eater !!!

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: J.C944TurboMan

Alright Fen , I don't get this part where you say "I had it for 6 months and sold it because it was boring and felt like an ordinary car... " As a true 944 enthusiast I would like to defend the 944 Turbo and state that it is a real beautiful car , with it's blistered arches and great body lines , the unique near perfect balance weight distribution , making the 944 and 968 one of the best driving cars ever , so if you don't like the 944's why do you come on the 944 Forum ! Why not just stick to the 911 Forum's and all of you can just go on all day about how great your cars are ! Don't get me wrong the 911 is a true icon and to some a desirable car , but I can afford a 911 but choose to own a 944 Turbo because it brings me so much joy when I dust a 911 !!! Best regards J PS. nick named 911 Eater !!!

Popcorn, beer, comfy chair. []

 

[swright]

ORIGINAL: pauly


Popcorn, beer, comfy chair. []

LOL[][]

 

[Neil Haughey]

ISTR this was the first 951 Fen had. I believe at a later stage he then had a S2, a S2 cab and then a very heavily modified 951. All in all given the amount of money Fen has spent on 944's over the past several years it is hard to think of someone more enthusiastic about the car.

 

[Fen]

What I said was that after a 3.2 Carrera the 944T felt boring and like an ordinary car - I said this to highlight how much of a step-change the impact bumper 911 is again from the 944T. Had I said (if only I were in the position that I could have done...) "after I sold the Veyron I bought a 360 Stradale but sold it after 6 months because it felt so slow" would you understand what I meant? It isn't to suggest the Stradale is a slow car (quite the reverse in fact), but to highlight that even compared to a fast car the Veyron is massively faster. In other words compared to a 944T, which is a car with good levels of tactility and feedback, the 3.2 Carrera is massively, massively more involving. No slight on the 944 intended.

I do stand by my statement however, in that if anyone likes their 944 because of its tactility and driver involvement then they should drive a torsion sprung (let's face it; the bumpers have nothing to do with it) 911. They aren't the same car however - otherwise I guess they wouldn't both have been made at the same time. As Neil has said I went back after selling the first one and have owned 2 other 944 Turbos as well as an S2 coupe and cab, largely because my requirements changed and the 944 met them (in my eyes at the time) better than the other cars available. My mistake first time was trying to replace a 911 with a 944, when I got back into 944 ownership I wanted a 944, not a discounted way to own a 911.

In terms of 911 beating / eating - please... The 944T is not a fast car in absolute terms, and neither is the 911, so who cares which one goes slightly faster than the other? There are any number of cars you could buy for similar money that would blow both old Porsche models into the weeds if that's all you care about. If you can afford a 911 but choose a 944T then congratulations. If we're willy-waving however I can afford to have both (and did do for a while not so long ago). I actually DO own a 944 Turbo and I actually DON'T have any desire to own a 911. If the truth be told I'd rather not own a 944 either, but the facts are the facts.

I guess my view having long ago having worn through the shine of owning a Porsche is that they are just cars like any other - they are better than most, but they aren't the best. In my opinion the company lost the plot about 1996 and while the Cayman sounds good on paper having driven one I'm left in the position that the only current model I'd half-way like to own is the Cayenne - a situation that has been the case since the truck was launched and at least means they make something I like which was last the case when the 993 was still available new.

Credentials established I hope - do I have permission from the overly sensitive new boy to carry on posting in the forum I've used for 4 1/2 years now?

 

[swright]

Fantastic reply Fen[]
But to say 'The 944T is not a fast car in absolute terms,' is a bit erm, how can i put this, erm, well wrong surly. OK there are cars that are faster but its still a fast car any way you look at it. And so is the 911. Just because there are quicker cars out there it doesn't mean that our cars are 'not fast'. I know my car gets to silly bannable speeds very quickly indeed and i have left many so called 'sports cars' a few driven by friends, for dead. And also a fair few modern porkers too for that matter.

But enough of my silly 'my cars faster than yours' banter. Its all about the love of the marque for me. I simply love Porsche full stop[8D]

I'm loving this debate. I just wish id not drunkenly jumped in the other night with my stupid post that quite rightly tbh got removed.[&:]

Stu

 

[georgethackray]

Stu.

Go to bed, it's late!! []

 

[Fen]

Some of us had the discussion elsewhere on the forum not so long ago, and I contend that the 944 is not a fast car by the measure of other cars available. Sure it's faster than most, but out of the box top-end hatches that even today cost not much more than half what a 944T did 20 years ago are close if not already up to 250 Turbo performance, never mind the sort of thing that's available if you allow yourself the equivalent in today's money of £40k in 1989.

There might not be much with the combo of performance, balance and practicality, but there are faster cars just as there are more practical cars and I'm afraid to say cars that handle better than a 944. The design is basically getting on for 35 years old after all (even the Turbo is getting on for 30 years old in design terms) and things move on.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Fen
never mind the sort of thing that's available if you allow yourself the equivalent in today's money of £40k in 1989.

Too right Fen.. You hit the nail on the head there .....!

Lets talk money then ... A 944 Turbo in 1989 was approx £40k .. In 1989 you could have had a Toyota Corolla for about £9k .. Thats over 4 times the price of a Corolla.... The modern equivalent of the Corolla is the Auris .. What are they ..? Nearly £18k or so. If the 944 was 4 times the price of a Corolla in 1989 then that makes it up to £72k in modern terms... That my friends is the bracket of car you are talking about.... What will £72k get you today performance wise.......?

Anyway I like anything with a Porsche badge on it ... Even this sexy beast []

Note the extra "seating" on the side wing to take "Mary" to the cattle mart in Mountbellew ! []

This tractor in fairness is absolutely beautifully restored. The owner has 6 of these and never once did he compare them with modern tractors. He said he loves the feel of the Porsche tractor compared with a Massey, Ford or David Brown from the same 'era'........ A true enthusiast...... Just like ourselves []

 

[333pg333]

Well I'll wade in here for what it's worth. I get Fen's point re changing from the 3.2 and finding the 944 a bit naff. In terms of tactility probably little else compares to an older 911. The 2.7 RS is still considered one of the best drivers cars ever built. The 944 also has a typically vague steering characteristic and this was echoed by a Pro that drove my car and concurred that it was something like his own 944t. However these cars are still fast though you can't compare it to spending the comparitive amount now (40k) on a hot whatever. This is because you are either comparing in relative terms OR you must be allowed to spend 40k on a 944t , and then compare it to something of the same value made now. In other words, sure allocate 40k but lets compare it to a modified 944t for the same amount. I know what I'd have my money on. Also we're not counting the 25 years of design advances in this comparison and still I'll take the modified 944t. Would it be a waste of money to spend 40k on a 944t? Certainly. Would it be the best car on the road? No, but again, like the bulk of this thread, it's totally subjective. Would it be the fastest/quickest? No, but I hope to re-enervate Fen's flagging interest in the 944t if he makes it over to Sydney. I will certainly bow long and low to Fen and others collections over the years. WAY beyond my history. Am I biased for the modified 944t? Certainly. Would I like a 911. Yes. Many different versions appeal. The idea of trying to get into an early GT3 somehow irks me as I know the 997rs is a much better, quicker car, so I'm of the 'Why Bother' crowd. So I'll continue to waste money on my modified 944t until my senses return. Meanwhile carry on this thread. All good fun.

 

[appletonn]

I know what Fen means about the 944. I love my car, but I would have to say it was more of a special event to start up my old 964 and go for a drive, both in terms of the whole ambience, cockpit, engine noise scenario aswell as the steering feel, which despite the 964 being less raw than the torsion bar cars (and with PAS), still provides more feel and feedback than that of the 944 imho.

I am comparing apples with carrots here, as they are very different cars in design and heritage, but I would say the major draw of the 964 for me over my 944 is the engine, with the sound (especially with a cup pipe[]) and characteristics that go with it.

 

[NeilW]

Nick, agree with everything you say re 944 and 964. Two totally different rides, with different design goals. I've only had my 964 for 6 months but am surprised to hear Fen label it as boring. Granted, I haven't owned the variety of cars other have, but still! If memory serves I think Fen's had similar mods to my own, e.g. cup pipe, lowered, 17"s, and both of the C4 variety. Undoubtedly less raw than a SC/3.2 but when used daily and not as a toy, a good compromise in terms of safety features and mod cons. 964's do sound the biz though, there's just a bit more soundproofing. My 944t though is still enormous fun, just a lot less visceral.

 

[Hilux]

Sure it's faster than most, but out of the box top-end hatches that even today cost not much more than half what a 944T did 20 years ago are close if not already up to 250 Turbo performance, never mind the sort of thing that's available if you allow yourself the equivalent in today's money of £40k in 1989.

Nail and head come to mind. The 944`s legendary handling is certainly impressive, Derek Bell took a bog standard one around the `ring in 8.30 IIRC however there are technological advances that have dulled the gloss in the last 20 years.

There are some seriously quick cars out there today and with modern suspension and active controls (remember Porsche have chrono packs and PASM etc) with more power that counters their excess weight and with cornering abilities equal to 944`s straight out of the showroom. They are also incredibly reliable with bullet proof mechanicals.

Dont get me wrong, I love my 944 but thats because I actually loathe most of the bland cars out there today. Notwithstanding that statement I`d love to drive some of the cars around but simply wouldnt pay the money for them (take the depreciation hit!)

 

[appletonn]

OK, blatant excuse to post pic of my old 964...

 

[georgethackray]

Hi Nick,

Can't see the pic! (Someone will read this post in a few days time and wonder what I'm on about, but I promise, at the time of writing, there's no picture!)