Track S2/968 mutant review

[Christopher I Ralph]

Thanks for the comments, Peter and Oli.

Much as I love the 993, I still miss the S2 and look longingly at some of the adverts, but finding a really good one is difficult, particularly an unmolested Turbo.

 

[Suffolk944]

But then again Turbo's really do need at least some molesting to make them the car they should always have been, rather than the neutered version Porsche chose to put out so as not to embarrass their more elderly designs. []

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: barks944
I wondered if the solid castor mounts on my car were generating a lot of road noise. Have you got solid castors on your car Pete, I noticed your comments about Ollies idea to change to solid mounts and how it might remove a lot of the suppleness. I would sacrifice some handling for less road noise, It doesn't sound like Ollies car was sufferenig without the solid castor mounts anyway.

The solid top mounts give you a much more direct feel but my experience was that they did increase noise (physical through the wheel and audible) and transmission of imperfect road surfaces (although this also was done with a slight change of geo, so knowing to what degree they were responsible for the latter I'm not 100% sure). I love them on my car, but then I want a big adrenaline hit each time, so I'm not overly worried about refinement or its road manners.

Just a thought, what tyres are you running? The 888s are dreadful for example, I suspect I could knock quite a few dB off the noise of my car just by changing to some more sensible tyres.

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

The car in that new picture does look mean but the decals still suck []

I still think the price reflects the cost of the build + a bit of a mark up rather than a true market value. Quite often links to modded cars appear here or on the PH forums where the vendor clearly thinks that the money he has spent equates to the cars subsequent value and folk rightly point out that this generally is not the case (sometimes rather less politely than that). Certainly if I sold my car I would not expect it to (sadly) reach the price of a late standard car plus the cost of all the mods. £17k for a 250bhp S2 with KW suspension is just taking the proverbial whatever its condition imho.

I don't doubt there is some mark up, they are a business after all, but they've not done some quick tart up job to make lots of money, they've in essence made a show car which I assume will get some positive press coverage for them and the 944 as a breed. To my mind just to look at this car as a retail priced vehicle misses the point somewhat. I suspect it will take a while to find the right customer for it (especially in the current economy), but if it inspires a few people to modify 944s via themselves in stages to get to where this car is then you could argue it's done its job, and it has showcased what they can do in the best way possible.

Just out of interest, what are they supposed to sell it for? If they list it at (a completely random amount of) £10K then everyone is logically going to think they can drive in with their S2 (worth £4k) and drive out with a car of this spec at £6k and as my rough figures suggest this would be impossible. So that's why I don't think it's over priced for what you are getting, over priced for the market is another thing altogether and whether or not it sells will prove the latter. I hope that 944s are losing that bastard child of the porsche range image as they age and this sort of project can only help with that.

I think I'll bow out from further discussions of pricing as I've said my bit and don't want to come across as having blinkered vision about the thing, but please do try and have a look at what they've done for yourselves if you can.

 

[barks944]

ORIGINAL: Peter Empson

ORIGINAL: barks944
I wondered if the solid castor mounts on my car were generating a lot of road noise. Have you got solid castors on your car Pete, I noticed your comments about Ollies idea to change to solid mounts and how it might remove a lot of the suppleness. I would sacrifice some handling for less road noise, It doesn't sound like Ollies car was sufferenig without the solid castor mounts anyway.

The solid top mounts give you a much more direct feel but my experience was that they did increase noise (physical through the wheel and audible) and transmission of imperfect road surfaces (although this also was done with a slight change of geo, so knowing to what degree they were responsible for the latter I'm not 100% sure). I love them on my car, but then I want a big adrenaline hit each time, so I'm not overly worried about refinement or its road manners.

Just a thought, what tyres are you running? The 888s are dreadful for example, I suspect I could knock quite a few dB off the noise of my car just by changing to some more sensible tyres.

I'm running on Conti N2 225/205's up front (can't remember exactly now). 255s on the rear.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: Peter Empson

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

The car in that new picture does look mean but the decals still suck []

I still think the price reflects the cost of the build + a bit of a mark up rather than a true market value. Quite often links to modded cars appear here or on the PH forums where the vendor clearly thinks that the money he has spent equates to the cars subsequent value and folk rightly point out that this generally is not the case (sometimes rather less politely than that). Certainly if I sold my car I would not expect it to (sadly) reach the price of a late standard car plus the cost of all the mods. £17k for a 250bhp S2 with KW suspension is just taking the proverbial whatever its condition imho.

I don't doubt there is some mark up, they are a business after all, but they've not done some quick tart up job to make lots of money, they've in essence made a show car which I assume will get some positive press coverage for them and the 944 as a breed. To my mind just to look at this car as a retail priced vehicle misses the point somewhat. I suspect it will take a while to find the right customer for it (especially in the current economy), but if it inspires a few people to modify 944s via themselves in stages to get to where this car is then you could argue it's done its job, and it has showcased what they can do in the best way possible.

Just out of interest, what are they supposed to sell it for? If they list it at (a completely random amount of) £10K then everyone is logically going to think they can drive in with their S2 (worth £4k) and drive out with a car of this spec at £6k and as my rough figures suggest this would be impossible. So that's why I don't think it's over priced for what you are getting, over priced for the market is another thing altogether and whether or not it sells will prove the latter. I hope that 944s are losing that bastard child of the porsche range image as they age and this sort of project can only help with that.

I think I'll bow out from further discussions of pricing as I've said my bit and don't want to come across as having blinkered vision about the thing, but please do try and have a look at what they've done for yourselves if you can.

I don't think anyone is casting aspersions upon the cars capabilities. Simply that given the UK 944 market heavily modifying a 944 and expecting an economic return is a mugs game unless you stumble across a very, very specialised buyer (maybe RPM will find one such, maybe not) . If the cars went for the equivalent they do in other countries then great, but they don't.

I think the cars are losing the bastard child tag (least the good ones are) and hopefully this trend will continue but a dose of realism is needed too.

To me the £17k price of this example suggests that if I change the clutch in mine and sort out the bits of bodywork as I am planning to I could sell it for something over £20k ? No ? Didn't think so...

 

[zcacogp]

Surely we are here entering into the age-old debate about the value of modified cars. No privateer would ever (sanely) expect to get the cost of their modifications back when they sell the car. And this makes modified 944's look slightly daft as the cost of the modifications can very quickly exceed the value of the car. If every turbo owner on here was to honestly tot up the cost of the modifications they have made to their cars and compare that with the price of a standard turbo now, it would make for some unhappy turbo owners. (Heck, if I added up the cost of the petrol I have put into my S2 over the last 5 years it would almost certainly exceed the value of the vehicle!)

RPM have created something that is very capable, doubtless. And, to someone who wants precisely this, it will make a very good buy. But, given the multiple ways of coming to a price, any one way is going to look a little odd from any other point of view. Being a known dealer they may find someone who is happy to pay the price - and I hope they do, for their sake. And if it can bring some good publicity to the 944 image in the process, all well and good.


Oli.

 

[Suffolk944]

Yes exactly Oli, but I don't see why this reality should apply to us crazy privateers and not to a set up like RPM ? My only other observation is that if you really want a 944 with more than 250bhp (and rather more than just 3 extra) then there really is no need to blow £4000 on an engine transplant...[8|]

 

[zcacogp]

Now that (first) question IS a good one. I guess it's because RPM is a trader, with customers coming and going all the time, and where people would expect to find a car like this. Also, looking at it from the other end of the equation, I'd be happier to buy a car like this from the likes of RPM as I know they would have built it well, would be what they are claiming it is, and would offer some kind of back-up if things went badly wrong after purchase. I guess it's the same argument as to why dealers can charge more for cars than private sellers, just taken (quite a lot of) steps further.


Oli.

 

[DivineE]

I do sometimes wonder what would happen if all owners put our standard 944 turbos up for £15k plus when we sold them rather than £5k+? I'm fairly certain that people would happily pay that for the car if thats how much they were to buy and sell. I'd still choose a 944 turbo over anything in the £15k price bracket. It logically 'should' be there with the TR6 and similar.

 

[sawood12]

Well £17k for this car is good value - but only to someone in the market for a turnkey modded car (same for the £20k Promax v8 conversion turnkey car). You may be able to buy all the bits separately and make a modest saving (maybe a couple of grand at the most), but would you be able to build the car and set it up - it isn't a simple case of just bolting them on - they've got to be set up and made to compliment eachother. If no-one here places any value on what the guys at RPM have brought to the party then they clearly need a reality check!

Believe me, you could buy a £3k shed and a bucketful of parts and tinker about with it yourself, but you wont end up with a car anywhere near in the same league as this one. Then you would end up paying someone to set the car up and you'll have ended up just paying £17k for a decent car in the first place.

Regarding the solid top mounts - I reckon my old car (now Barks944's) drove better in every respect with the KW, M030 TB's and solid top mounts than on the previous suspension and I didn't notice any increase in noise. Any increase in noise is just as likely to come from the tyres than the suspension.

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: sc0tty


If you ask me, I think my car should be worth far more than all the modded track cars ! It seems that this forum defies the common logic of every tv show and car related article that I have ever read, and that is that the highest value cars are the ones that are standard, and have low mileage. I rest my case.

Why don't we have one 944 forum for track cars, and one for normal cars? []

Why don't we have one forum for scotty and one for normal people? []

Fwiw what really adds value is a competition history.....[]

 

[Diver944]

The simple truth is that to some folk it's a cheap track car.

That may sound like a daft thing to say when it's possibly the most expensive S2 currently for sale in the UK but there are thousands of trackday enthusiasts around the UK pootling around the track in £60k+ cars slightly fearful of bending their pride and joy. That S2 is a bargain in comparison and because of its weight, setup and almost total rebuild, it will be driven much faster than the cosseted supercar being driven gingerly round the circuit. I am biased in that I think its wasted on a non-turbo 944 [] but I appreciate there are many who like the normally aspirated thing. It's unlikely it will sell quickly but I reckon it will sell

Very recently I spoke to a chap who went to look at that 340bhp Supercharged 968CS when it was for sale last year for £20k. He'a a 997 owner and has a 944T track car with a very worn out engine that he wanted to replace. He loved the car but the engine had running issues so he made a low offer which was rejected. It was sold to someone else and now its reappeared at Specialist Cars for £30k. That really is pushing the envelope at that price but yet again I believe it will eventually sell.

Track driving is not a cheap hobby and a large proportion of it's exponents will have a sizeable piggybank to play with. A full day could easily cost £1000 when you add up fees, fuel, car prep, tyres, brakes and wear and tear to the car. Do that a dozen times a year and the cost of the car starts to become immaterial [&:]

Edited to add - Stop Press. Specialist Cars have now reduced it to £25k

 

[pauljmcnulty]

It was sold to someone else and now its reappeared at Specialist Cars for £30k

Who also have a 968 sport for £18K. [&o]

And a seemingly normal S2 for £8K. Halving their prices seems to bring a more normal value.

My take on this thread is that there are some people who want a 944 developed to be a track car. But, very few of them want to buy it ready-made, the building seems to be most of the enjoyment. How many of the track-focussed cars actually spend much time on track before being sold on as the owner either loses interest or runs out of money? I know the guys who owned the Ninemeister supercharged 968, it was so unreliable that after a year they sold it and bought a GT3 each.

 

[Neil Haughey]

EMC have their white S2 race car for sale on pistonheads for something like £13K, it was built using my old shell with their usual full motorsport prep (acid dipped, weld in cage etc), GAZ 2ways, fibreglass kit, new LSD fitted (maybe a KAZ unit) and I know it recently had an engine rebuild as well. I know for a fact it would cost well north of £20K to build up to that spec and frankly that is nothing as I know of someone racing an S2 that has well over £30K spent on it but at the end of the day a race prepped S2 is worth around £12K and a race prepped 968 around £15K, a car that hasn't had the extensive body shell prep can never be worth as much as those figures. Sorry to say it but this RPM car is worth somewhere less than £10K IMHO, the fact its had a lot of money spent on it is irrelevant.

 

[944Turbo]

Well if they advertise it at 12k no one is going to offer them 14k so they may as well start high if they have no rush to sell.

A race car wont make a good road car without a lot of money spent on interior etc. so a race car has a limited market. Generally they have been raced which means they have been driven as hard as possible - obviously this is true to some track day cars as well.

Its a bargain compared to a new GT3 if the recession is knocking back your track toy budget a bit.

Tony

 

[Suffolk944]

I would say that £10k for a privateer prepped S2 would be really pushing it so even with a dealer premium on top - what £12k maybe. I can't help think that if RPM hadn't bolted the thing together themselves they would no way be asking £17k for the car.

Scott mentions the V8 conversion (and a brand new engine fresh from the crate)...£17k for 253BHP or £20k for 425BHP...hmm think if I was spending that sort of money on a 944 I would want something with exceptional performance rather than one which has no more power than a standard turbo.

 

[333pg333]

It is a real shame to know that you can pour many dollars/pounds/pesos, much blood sweat and tears, and a lot of time into making a car better....only to lose virtually all of this when it comes time to sell it on. In our ridiculous market down here S2s and turbos go from $15k to $30k or 9-18,000 GBPs. That is for a stock or stockish car. I would suspect if I went to sell my current car with KW race suspension, Big Reds, Racers Edge everything, Big billet cam, custom fmic, SFR 3-5" exhaust, Motorsport LSD, GT3076r turbo, Motec datalogger, Vitesse V Flex, Zeitronix wideband, OMG Raceseat, Carbon bonnet, lexan rear hatch, CF wing, 2 sets of wheels and whatever else I can't think of....I would be hard pressed to get the same money as a good stock 951. The fact that the car is probably the fastest 951 in the country or as fast as a quick GT3 would be lost on all but the dedicated purchaser. In other words, these sorts of cars are only worth as much as someone else is prepared to pay. I feel like selling my car to myself such the bargain that it would represent [][] and you see so many examples of the same thing regularly. You will always be better off buying something that someone else has built rather than doing it yourself (purely in financial terms anyway).

I imagine that the car that Peter has initially posted will come down in price once RPM is sick of shuffling it around their workshop. Sounds like a nice car all the same.

 

[edh]

I think this car puts it into perspective
I know which one I'd choose
For less than half the price, and I don't think anyone's been snapping his hand off at that sort of money.

We all know it's cheaper to buy a modified car already built. As Paul says, a lot of the fun is in the building - and I know how much is being poured into re-building my old turbo.

btw - on the subject of trackday costs, I worked out what my Honda has cost me this year - I'll start a new thread for it, but I think it makes interesting reading...

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: edh

btw - on the subject of trackday costs, I worked out what my Honda has cost me this year - I'll start a new thread for it, but I think it makes interesting reading...

Super Lightweight ex-racecars is cheating [] I know it will be far cheaper on consumables than our heavy old road cars so I cry 'foul' before you even post