Track S2/968 mutant review

[pauljmcnulty]

I've been watching this with interest. Or perhaps bemusement, as I struggle with the concept of a car that does both road and track without being compromised on both and the worst of two worlds.

I'm sure RPM are expecting to take offers, but it does seem to me that you could buy a really nice road 944 and a dedicated track car for that money. Look at the fun Ed has in his ickle Honda for example, or at Lali's 924 at only £7K. In fact, that car, plus a decent S2 for road use, and you'd have enough left to actually go racing, do track days or whatever.

What am I missing here? There are plenty of you who have the experience of modifying a 944 at incredible cost for track use when you look at the price of the ex-race cars for example. Not wanting to upset anyone, just that I'm genuinely interested why you don't leave the road car alone and spend the thousands on something more focussed. [8|]

 

[Suffolk944]

Personally I don't modify my car to try and make it a road/track car but rather a fast(er) and more capable road car, while dialling out some of the weaknesses from the orginal set up.

Yes you could argue whats the point given our crowded roads but by extension whats the point of any of us driving a performance car on the Queens highway ? I may one day take her on the occasional track day but if I was wanting to get into whizzing round a circuit properly I would certainly be looking for something much more track focussed.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I've been watching this with interest. Or perhaps bemusement, as I struggle with the concept of a car that does both road and track without being compromised on both and the worst of two worlds.

I'm sure RPM are expecting to take offers, but it does seem to me that you could buy a really nice road 944 and a dedicated track car for that money. Look at the fun Ed has in his ickle Honda for example, or at Lali's 924 at only £7K. In fact, that car, plus a decent S2 for road use, and you'd have enough left to actually go racing, do track days or whatever.

What am I missing here? There are plenty of you who have the experience of modifying a 944 at incredible cost for track use when you look at the price of the ex-race cars for example. Not wanting to upset anyone, just that I'm genuinely interested why you don't leave the road car alone and spend the thousands on something more focussed. [8|]

That is just the point. Building a dedicated track or street car - where is the skill in that? the recipe for both is clearly defined and well documented. True skill is in blending two opposing characteristics to provide a car that is very competent at both - that is what Porsche do particularly well with cars like the GT3 and, from what I gather, what RPM do with this car. In fact the vast majority of people do want a car that has a good blend of track capability with good street manners and creature comforts.

The point is that these guys are running a business. They are not just buying a £3k road car and bolting on various bit and bobs. They are stripping it down and refreshing alot of parts and setting up the car to achieve something that can genuinely do both. Of course you can't take it racing out of the box - but if you don't want to race who wants a rattly, squeaky, noisy, uncomfortable track dedicated car for the odd track-day? Personally I couldn't think of anything worse. And then again, who wants a soft, rolly-polly standard 944? Times have moved on and I don't think it is unreasonable for people to want to update their cars to something that feels a bit more modern.

RPM wont be making much of a premium on a car of this spec. If you want a cheap - cobbled together car then you can do that for alot less. If you want a well sorted car that will provide big smiles on both road and track then that is more tricky to achieve.

Clearly the value of a car like this varies with individuals. Look at some of the packages you get with these specialist companies with things like E-Types and Astons that charge about £30k over and above the initial cost of the car for parts that as far as I can see only cost about £5k (mostly suspension, brakes and uprated cooling and ignition systems). By these standards this thing is a bargain and will be in a whole other world in terms of capability (though I'd love a fettled/modernised E-type!).

 

[blease]

Of course you can't take it racing out of the box - but if you don't want to race who wants a rattly, squeaky, noisy, uncomfortable track dedicated car for the odd track-day?

Have to say that my track car is remarkably rattle and squeak free, is no noisier than my 996 (with sports exhaust) and only uncomfortable because of the cobra bucket seats I fitted. I am amazed how civilized it is with all the sound deadening stripped out although I out the carpets back...they weighs grams rather than kilo's! I'd happily commute in it if needed. The Koni Sports suspension retains a reasonable road compliancy.

If I was gonna shell out this much moolah for a 944, I reckon I would save the extra 3k needed to get Promax to build me an LS-1 car. Now THAT would be a track car!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

That is just the point. Building a dedicated track or street car - where is the skill in that? the recipe for both is clearly defined and well documented. True skill is in blending two opposing characteristics to provide a car that is very competent at both - that is what Porsche do particularly well with cars like the GT3 and, from what I gather, what RPM do with this car. In fact the vast majority of people do want a car that has a good blend of track capability with good street manners and creature comforts.

Hmmm. I get that, and the GT3 is a good example. But, would you be better off with a Carrera S and an Atom? Perhaps not, I've never driven a GT3 but their popularity would suggest it's a compromise that does achieve the best of both worlds.

I also agree that the RPM car might be the 944 equivalent of a GT3, in which case it's a bargain. I'm still not convinced that it'll be as good on a track as a well-sorted turbo on rock-hard suspension and slicks, stripped of all excess weight. Or a supercharged N/A car, not wanting Peter to feel left out. []

To me, the difference between the half-way cars and the real hardcore track cars like Peter's, or Ed's Honda, is so huge that I can't see why you'd want to compromise. They are, of course, a little too hardcore for everyday use. I totally agree that most people want a car that, as you say, has a good blend of track capability with good street manners and creature comforts. I just wonder if that's actually easily achievable with a single 944, and if you developed it that far would you be worrried about the risks and wear & tear of regular track use. Splitting the pot of cash in to two cars, both fully focussed on their different roles, might be a better option?

My better half would like me to be as fit as an olympic sportsman and as intelligent as a particle physicist, but sadly I have to tell her that such perfection isn't going to happen in one body. Particularly mine. [&o]

 

[Neil Haughey]

A simple way to get the explanation is to ask anyone who races or who is a serious tracker why they trailer their car? After all you don't have to. Marks car is road legal and he drove it to races earlier in the season, my own car whilst never driven on the road was built with the intention of doing so. Ppl usually give the reason as being what happens if you spank the car, well if you race a 944 and use an outfit like EMC that's hardly a reason as they attend all the same races anyway, and of course you may as well spank a car on a trackday or suffer a mechanical failure (happened to me 3 out of 3 so would as likely have happened on a track day). No the reason is simple, if you can use a trailer instead and leave the track car purely for the track you do because its simply less tiring, less to worry about, less wear and tear on the car, keeps the tyres just for the track and saves money on road tax etc. etc.

I don't know of a single person that has been down this route and concluded anything other than a track car is a track car and a road car is something separate.

I did about 700 miles over the Snetterton race weekend, in the Rangie cruising at 60 its pretty easy going, no track modded car is going to compare to a big comfortable cruiser tow truck.

I am in the very odd position though of looking at driving my car on the road for track days early next year as I don't have a trailer and have got pretty fed up of the cost and hassles of picking up local rental jobs. For a few race weekends OK but the neighbours would probably lynch me if I did it every fortnight next year []

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

Personally I don't modify my car to try and make it a road/track car but rather a fast(er) and more capable road car, while dialling out some of the weaknesses from the orginal set up.

Yes you could argue whats the point given our crowded roads but by extension whats the point of any of us driving a performance car on the Queens highway ? I may one day take her on the occasional track day but if I was wanting to get into whizzing round a circuit properly I would certainly be looking for something much more track focussed.

[] It has got "history" though [].

It certainly has and if anything some of the changes I have put in place (especially the suspension) has brought it rather closer to road than track focus !

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

Personally I don't modify my car to try and make it a road/track car but rather a fast(er) and more capable road car, while dialling out some of the weaknesses from the orginal set up.

Yes you could argue whats the point given our crowded roads but by extension whats the point of any of us driving a performance car on the Queens highway ? I may one day take her on the occasional track day but if I was wanting to get into whizzing round a circuit properly I would certainly be looking for something much more track focussed.

[] It has got "history" though [].

It certainly has and if anything some of the changes I have put in place (especially the suspension) has brought it rather closer to road than track focus !

Now all you need is a massive turbo and 400hp to complete the tranformation []

 

[Suffolk944]

Yes sorry Ben - not forgotten, lets just say negotiations are ongoing []

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
I also agree that the RPM car might be the 944 equivalent of a GT3, in which case it's a bargain. I'm still not convinced that it'll be as good on a track as a well-sorted turbo on rock-hard suspension and slicks, stripped of all excess weight. Or a supercharged N/A car, not wanting Peter to feel left out. []

It's definately a compromise Paul, just a very pleasently judged one in my opinion (you really should try to have a go in it next time you're at RPM). A hardcore 944 will be quicker undoubtedly, and if my car didn't lap more rapidly in the dry then I'd be surprised (but then it is lighter, more powerful and has ultimately had rather a lot more invested in it). In the wet I'm not so sure!

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

A simple way to get the explanation is to ask anyone who races or who is a serious tracker why they trailer their car? After all you don't have to.

I don't know of a single person that has been down this route and concluded anything other than a track car is a track car and a road car is something separate.

I quite agree - if you can afford to run more cars it's the best option. The regs of the last series (LMA roadsaloons) my Honda raced in (and won []) required all cars to be road legal & driven to and from the circuit - just like they used to do in old days.... As a consequence the car is actually bearable on the road. Good enough to do the trip to Nurburg and back, and still consider doing it again next year anyway. I wouldn't use it for anything other than track work though. My old Sierra race car doubled as a great vehicle for hauling loads to the tip - it was cavernous! [] I did get some funny looks when I rolled up with a load of junk in the back though []

The 944 is about as good as it gets for a reasonably cheap (i.e. not GT3) road car that performs pretty well on track in a standard 'ish spec. I think I will spend less on 2 cars than I did on the one dual purpose 944 turbo though. And ultimately you do start to hanker after weight reduction, which does reduce the utility of the car on the road. When (if) things pick up again, I'd love to run a track only 944/924 - Lali's is probably close to my ideal. Actually, if I had a place to keep a trailer, I'd be very tempted by a seven - another level of sharpness, noise & intensity up from a sports or saloon car.

So that's a seven, a track 944, keep the Honda, an early turbo for the road, keep the Legacy, and my wife can have her A2 []

 

[Neil Haughey]

Cieran Brewers race S2 which is up at £12K set our class pole of 1:08 on Silverstone national this year. If one compare that to road cars then even looking at sevens the only ones that are as quick or quicker are the mental ones (or race cars). Kevin Eacock also informed me after Spa weekend that their S2 ran very similar corner speeds to the sevens they shared the race with so no one should underestimate just how good these cars cornering can be made. Those of us who have driven a proper race or track prepped car know how fast they are compared to pretty much anything sold as a road car.

To be honest I am with Edh on this one, if one can't afford a proper race/track 944 or 924 then a secondhand tintop makes much more sense to me than a hybrid Porsche that is neither a road car or a track car. Having said that all you boosty boys should try a lightweight NA on track.

As for the compliance of ride, I believe this depends a lot on who has set the car up. I run fairly soft springs on mine (450 lb) but tbh in the early laps at Snett the car felt great with its new tweeked setup, hugely gutting that I didn't get the chance to properly use the car that weekend. Still really comfortable driving around the paddock and on the concrete escape roads. Some cars run springs almost double mine and yes I doubt they could be driven on the road, however I know the rough setup some of the fastest guys in the UK run and one shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking harder = better because it ain't true.

 

[Paz]

Neil, your posts read like that of a veteran racer with many years of experience.
How many races have you done?

Did you do lots of trackdays before racing?

If I had any talent behind the wheel I'd love to race, I guess I'll just have to stick to being a pit crew gofer - it's still fun []

 

[Andy97]

ORIGINAL: Paz

Did you do lots of trackdays before racing?

If I had any talent behind the wheel I'd love to race, I guess I'll just have to stick to being a pit crew gofer - it's still fun []

Paz, can I assure you that you don't need talent to go CLUB racing!! Competence, yes, but not talent. That's not to suggest that there are not some quick drivers around but its like any sport, there are always highly talented "professionals" & enthusiasts who want to "give it a go". You can find your level & enjoy it, just like playing sunday league football rather than being in the Premiership or playing golf in your local Medal rather than on the European Tour.

I don't have a much talent in a race car but I thoroughly enjoy it & did not want to get to 70 & say "I wish I'd tried that".

Give it a go, there are plenty of true club level series where you can enjoy yourself and not spent stupidly ridiculous amounts of money & where you don't need to be the next Lewis Hamilton or have had years of karting experience.

I took up racing at the age of 40 having done about 3 trackdays & had a little instruction. I tried single seaters first (Monoposto Racing Club) in a 1600cc Formula Vauxhall Junior - the car cost me £4500 & was way quicker than virtually any road car. I have never had so much fun coming last in anything else in my life!!! I gave up single seaters when I had spun one too many times & decided that FWD saloons were probably better for my (low) level of talent. My £2k Fiat Uno was fantastic fun and now my Toyota even more so.

Give it a go.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I have never had so much fun coming last in anything else in my life!!!

Thanks for summing up my karting exploits so perfectly! [][]

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

Personally I don't modify my car to try and make it a road/track car but rather a fast(er) and more capable road car, while dialling out some of the weaknesses from the orginal set up.

Yes you could argue whats the point given our crowded roads but by extension whats the point of any of us driving a performance car on the Queens highway ? I may one day take her on the occasional track day but if I was wanting to get into whizzing round a circuit properly I would certainly be looking for something much more track focussed.

[] It has got "history" though [].

It certainly has and if anything some of the changes I have put in place (especially the suspension) has brought it rather closer to road than track focus !

Isn't it on KW's ?, surely a more capable setup than the 968 stuff.

Yes but much more comfy on the road too []

 

[MarkK]

I am glad my race car is road legal,if i want to pop it to get something changed or fixed, i can drive it there,if i unload the lorry the night before a race and am at a circuit testing i can nip back to the Hotel in the car without loading up the Lorry,it is a "compromise" that works fine,the car is a tad noisier perhaps and does not have a radio but i have nipped from Leicester to Brands Hatch to have a Lesson and a track evening then back home,it is very drivable on the road.
Nobody could say it was a race car that was compromised too much either,it did well enough this year and is plenty competitive for the Future Classics and there is so much that could be developed easily to make it lighter and quicker whilst still retaining its roadlegalness.It really has been practical this year and all worked out fine,i take it in a Lorry to races because when you race there is a chance that the car might need to be transported home if there is an "off" or some contact with another car or barrier or if indeed it might break down, although this year it finished every race in the Future Classics plus 2 big Interseries races plus quite a few Sports car V Saloons, so i would say although it is a road legal tack car it is a nice mix that has worked an absoloute treat,i reckon that mix of results and reliability history will make it quite saleable too if i ever sell it in the future.[]
(i have had a couple of people ask for first refusal already )

 

[MarkK]

I like the RPM car,its not for me but it was created with enthusiasm and passion which are good and positive things,and you only need one person to buy it and i bet that person will have a hoot in it,good luck to them i say.

 

[OLD_ian]

On their web-site the car is listed as withdrawn from sale.

I picked up my car from RPM yesterday morning and their 944 track day car had been in a shunt on track this weekend.

ORIGINAL: MarkK

I like the RPM car,its not for me but it was created with enthusiasm and passion which are good and positive things,and you only need one person to buy it and i bet that person will have a hoot in it,good luck to them i say.

 

[edh]

That's bad news - hope it's not too badly damaged. Porsche panels can be very expensive!