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Turbo vs. S2

Hi Fen. Your generalisations are true. Most 944Ts of a certain mileage will be in the state of repair that you suggest. Seeing the number of £ notes that have been thrown at mine by previous owners in its 31,000 history, I am luckier than most to be able to experience what a good example of a "bone-stock" turbo is like. The boost gauge sits bang on 1 when the engine is off so when it goes fsd to the right, or over 2.2 bar boost (absolute) I have to assume my waste gate has a lot of life left in it. It is hopelessly laggy, and I prefer my 924T which actually feels nippy by comparision. Until the boost comes in; then it is like Paul says, mad nutter turbo bast**rd quick, 928 S4 quick up to its maximum, quicker than the Nissan 350 z on the dual carriageway the other day. Pulling away like he was stopped. Oh yes he was trying I could hear his engine revving through its loud exhaust. All things are relative though. There are a lot of cars out there that would make the 944 look pedestrian. I am happy enough with mine.
 
I agree with most of what you are saying except neither a 928S4 nor a 350z are fast. A 350z is just a mass produced Datsun coupe and the 928S4 has been hopelesly left behind in performance terms. My Turbo's turbo used to transition from virtually no boost to pretty much full boost between 4,100 and 4,500rpm or therabouts, and full boost was a fair bit more than 2.2bar absolute (which by the way in itself is a lot more than standard) and even then it didn't feel fast.

On the other hand the way the Turbo delivers its power makes it feel faster than it really is. The S2 isn't fast and it doesn't feel fast; the Turbo isn't much faster yet it feels a lot more so. Apocryphally when the 3.3 version of the 911 Turbo was launched with much better manners and a fair bit more go than the outgoing 3.0 version people thought the 3.0 was the faster car because it felt quicker.

What does that say about my Turbo? If it didn't even feel fast then clearly it wasn't. I didn't get much chance to measure it against other performance machinery when it was running its full power, but I doubt it would have been very impressive. I know I was dissappointed with it and when I did drive it extensively with circa 306bhp it was absolutely unremarkable. Ditto a mate's 305bhp version I drove round the 'Ring.
 
Chaps,

Thanks for your comments. Very interesting to read, and helpful to have things summarised in one place, although I'm not sure I read anything I haven't heard before. Mind you, I am not making a decision I haven't made before, either ...

The (hypothetical) Seat Altea incident (that never happened) involved my S2 with two passengers (one of them was Mrs zcacogp who is small, but also a friend who is a fair bit larger than me), a bootful of junk and a full tank of juice. At a guess, this lot weighed an extra 200+ kgs (15%), which can't have helped the performance. We were stuck behind a coach on the A22 in Sussex, and the aforementioned welly-boot-waggon pulled out to go 'round the coach. I pulled out as well, and realised that I was working the horses pretty hard to keep with him. I can't say I was left behind, but I can certainly say that it was a depressingly even match and I doubt I could have got past. Driver error, Scott? Very probably. But still very depressing - not least the clouds of smoke being kicked out of the Altea being blown up our collective noses. Anyway, as I said, it never happened so I can't let it concern me ...

Debates about cars feeling fast or not - the S2 has never felt that fast. But the feeling of speed is illusory - our perception of speed is actually the feeling of the rate of change of acceleration (snap), so something that accelerates very smoothly and cleanly doesn't feel that fast. Something that has a torque curve with a sudden step in it will "feel" a whole load quicker as you are pushed into your seat, and yet may not be any much quicker at all. Perhaps this is mirroring what Fen said about S2's and Turbo's, but it does explain why the S2 feels so ... ordinary ... when being stoked. (Fen, I'm not trying to claim that S2's are fast after all, but I do think that your criteria for 'fast' is perhaps somewhat higher than some other people's. I recall you saying that essentially you like to go very fast in straight lines, and perhaps therefore you have achieved much more 'fast' than most. I'd certainly consider a 928S4 as being fast, for instance ... )

So, Turbos. Because of the huge variety in states of tune of the turbos on here, I guess there is no one experience. Thanks for your various inputs. FWIW, I usually recon about 380-400 miles from a tank on my S2 in mixed motoring. (Equates to 27-31mpg). Yes, I would like more performance, and Scott's description of his 951 being something that accelerates like a 1.8 focus when off-boost and significantly quicker when on-boost makes it sound very appealing. Paul confirms it ... Descriptions elsewhere of turbo's spinning their wheels in 5th at 70mph make me drool with desire, but hearing of huge bills being run up to make them go like that don't appeal. As I said, I don't want to bankrupt myself on buying a toy ... Fen's comments about a Turbo not being as nice as an S2 on the road until you are 2-3 times deeper into the overdraft than the cost of an S2 would suggest that the S2 is a much better value choice.

Having two cars is not an option. A nice idea - yes, but not possible. And if it was a turbo, I'd need to have it insured for business use, with modifications. People have said this could be tricksy ... maybe I need to call my broker and ask nicely for some advice.

Charles - sorry, but I really don't rate the 944 engines in terms of noise. They work well enough, but sound as boring as a Nova when being caned. You need to get at least one more cylinder (and perferably two or four more) before they sound at all interesting.

So .... I am coming back to my original point of view. My S2 is exceedingly competent, and I love it. It is more than fast enough for me 99.9% of the time (350bhp looks remarkably like 35bhp when sitting in a traffic jam, which I do quite a lot of) and I know the car - I think it is at least average, and shouldn't spring any nasty surprises. I do need to take the first silencer out and find a chip, and that may make it a bit brisker. And it needs a service.

I also don't really want to go through the hassle of selling it, and finding a good turbo to buy (before I start thinking about the cost of upgrading. What would I get for my S2? £4k if I am lucky? And how much does a mint 951 cost nowadays? Hmmm, I think there was a thread on that very topic recently ... ) So, sticking with my S2 seems like the sensible way forwards. It does me well, doesn't bankrupt me, requires enough fiddling to keep me happy (time is short, as ever), and I love driving it. I can live with being a slightly second-class citizen the world of 944 ownership (hell, I don't even have KW's - perhaps I am a third class citizen!), knowing that while I don't have the best 944, I have a fairly good one.

Peter - supercharging my S2 sounds like a great idea when you say it quickly, but the only person I know who has gone that route is ... erm ... you! This therefore says to me "nutters only need apply", and I am boring and square (as everyone who as ever met me will attest to.) It also appears to be a pretty pricey way of getting performance, compared to selling the existing car and splashing out on a 951.

Then I read posts like Damon's, and wonder if I am just being a bit too boring and conservative .. dammit! (Damon, please don't post things like that again. There's a good chap!)

Thanks for your input folks. Much to think about. (I suspect I will now descend into a semi-morose scouring of the classifieds, wondering whether a 245,000 mile turbo for £2k is the leggy dog it could be, then discover that Mrs zcacogp has blown any available budget on a pair of earrings. Or a holiday. Or chocolate. Or something.)


Oli.
 
Funny old world we live in. There was me thinking the 0-60 time of the 928 and its top speed was fast. Mast have something to do with the reverse rotation of the natural water-vorticies in the southern hemisphere.
 
ORIGINAL: 924nutter

Funny old world we live in. There was me thinking the 0-60 time of the 928 and its top speed was fast. Mast have something to do with the reverse rotation of the natural water-vorticies in the southern hemisphere.

Or those 'herbal' cigarettes Fen's been smoking... A 300+hp 'Datsun' not fast?!!!

Perhaps not fast in the same way as a 550hp Zonda.....![:)]
 
I guess how 'fast' something feels is always a relative thing, and as you get used to a faster car and adjust to a new normality your personal interpretation changes. I've always felt my S2 to be quick 'enough' for the general road conditions - I'm sure it would feel a little lethargic on a track, but in everyday use it's fine. I'm also maybe a little out of step in that I think my old 4 pot sounds ok, at least once it comes on cam under full throttle - not multi-cylinder musical, but a nice mechanical growl. I've noticed that my bonnet lining has been removed, so don't know if that's a factor or whether I'm just un-cultured in such things.....
 
Just wonder how many of us 944 owners will keep our toys for more than 5 years. At that time, some of the newer desireable performance cars will be available in the used market which some of us will be tempted.

So my advice is keep what you have now be it S2/Turbo until your desire for change comes to bite you.
 
Hmmm, in 5 yrs time I'd love a stripped out 7 yr old Cayman S or one of those new GTR devices....

Runs and dons flameproof suit......[:D]
 
Exactly "¦ I'm not one for predictions, but I suspect that a Cayman S will end up in our garage in ten years' time once the original generation has dropped in price to 944 levels of affordability.
 
... then all we have to worry about is wallet-wilting levels road tax.

(That's if petrol is still available on the open market.)


Oli.
 
Did anyone read about this electric-powered supercar (to be produced) which products 500+ bhp with zero carbon footprint and near dead-silenct engine/exhaust notes. Just wonder how long it will take to recharge the batts and how many miles a full charge will last [:D].
 
Did anyone read about this electric-powered supercar (to be produced) which products 500+ bhp with zero carbon footprint and near dead-silenct engine/exhaust notes. Just wonder how long it will take to recharge the batts and how many miles a full charge will last .

There's certainly no such thing as zero carbon footprint car! It has to be built, and it takes the same amount of energy to move it as any other car the same mass. Electric means it's not oil, but that charge-up every night comes from somewhere. Clean-coal or gas power station or nuclear may be arguably more sustainable than petrol, but not even close to "sustainable transport alternative"! [:mad:]
 
Is anyone else with out an S2 or turbo feeling down??
I love my S1, the rugged aggressive front is well suited
 
ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Driver error, Scott? Very probably.

By the way Oli, wasn't meant to be a slur on your, no doubt, more than adequate driving skills. I just meant that you wont have been prepared to thrash your car whereas the Altea driver probably was. If you've got a eurobox like that that you only intend to keep for a few years then you can afford to thrash the thing and pass on the costs of clutch replacements to the next owner.

As has been said before, electric cars are not the future of car propulsion. Apart from the fact they have a higher carbon footprint than any diesel or petrol powered car, there is the problem of copper supply which is already becoming an issue, the fact that in high voltage electric motors ionise the air around them which creates Ozone, which is a green house gas many hundreds of times more potent than Carbon Dioxide, and the power to weight ratio of an electric motor is way behind that of a modern all alloy piston engine. The future of cars is alternative and sustainable fuels that can be used with current engines.

And I totally agree with Neil on the quickly diminishing business case for diesels.

By the way, my plan for my 944 turbo is to keep it until I can afford a 996 turbo, or a 997 turbo. So a long wait then!!
 
ORIGINAL: zcacogp



* - And I most certainly didn't have an embarassing incident yesterday on an A-road where I lost out in a straight line to a SEAT Altea which looked like a melted welly-boot and smoked like a diesel. OK. That didn't happen. At all. Never. Hope that is clear as well. OK? Good.

I know that Altea. Its blown and on nitrous !

ahem ,......does my doze look noticably bigger ?[:D]
 
ORIGINAL: appletonn

ORIGINAL: 924nutter

Funny old world we live in. There was me thinking the 0-60 time of the 928 and its top speed was fast. Mast have something to do with the reverse rotation of the natural water-vorticies in the southern hemisphere.

Or those 'herbal' cigarettes Fen's been smoking... A 300+hp 'Datsun' not fast?!!!

Perhaps not fast in the same way as a 550hp Zonda.....![:)]

Well let's put it this way. The 944 S2 or Turbo was not a competitor of the Datsun Z cars of its period (maybe the Lux was). The S2 and Turbo were however a lot faster than the Z cars. Todays Z car may or may not be as fast as a 944 Turbo because today fast is different to fast 20 years ago. The 350z is nothing special today, and the equivalent cars to £40,000 sports coupe / junior supercars of the 80's are seriously quicker than the 350z.

Yes a Zonda is fast, but so are more regularly seen cars; any recently manufactured BMW with an M in front of its model number; any Audi with RS in its name (even the original RS2 compared to the 944) are just 2 examples. Then cars such as the R8, 911, current Ferraris and Lambos (many of which I'd contend occupy the place in today's market a 1989 944 turbo at £42 grand did when new) are all much faster than a 350z.

0-60 is irrelevant when you get to anything much unde 6 seconds I'd say as nobody is brutal enough to extract better than that in their own car and with 2wd it becomes an indicator of traction as much as anything else.
 
Fen is right. However there is something deeper then this. None of the NA Porsche's up to the GT3 and recent 997 is substantially quicker then an S2 or 951 at normalish speeds IMHO, as in less then lock um up and chuck away the keys speed. The only modern Porsche 911 I have seen that had shocking acceleration was a GT2 that just disappeared up the road, and I guess the instant punch in a 996tt or 997tt would have a similar effect. The same is true for most other cars this is why I am not that bothered really about acceleration because if you want something that just walks away from other sports car you need something with a turbo or supercharger and more then 500 horses these days. Then of course you have to ask yourself if it will ever be driven hard on the road, which means its a track car and then you are back to square one because a light chassis and great handling is a better route to start on for a track machine then loads of power.

One could always go for 4wd of course like in the RS2 and get a buzz from the 0-30 time of 1.8 seconds. Will give the feeling of massive acceleration without breaking the law but I doubt even the robust RS2 could take to many full bore starts like that.
 

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