Turbo vs. S2
- Thread starter zcacogp
- Start date
The green one is very like the one I ended up not buying, the blue one is perfect - even has the preferable (to my eye) blue Alcantara seats.
I researched the backside out of the RS2 and while I can't remember the mpg now I do know it wasn't an issue for someone running, er, a 944 S2 (cab) at the time...
I know this is a 944 forum, but I'd definitely suggest an RS2 ahead of a 944T, Oli.
Someone earlier mentioned the attention a 944 gets and I thought at the time that I bet most people think it's a really expensive sportscar when it isn't (and that could easily get a negative reaction, especially these days) and petrolheads are inclined to think it's "not a real Porsche, mate". The RS2 on the other hand is an Audi 80 Avant to most eyes (a car which I contend, like the first 2 generations of Golf and not a lot else) is almost timeless; the sort you are never embarrassed to be seen in (well, maybe Nogaro blue is a bit lairy for that [
]) yet to a petrolhead it's an absolute icon.
If I see an RS2 being driven I always try to catch the eye of the driver and make a small aknowledgement of the coolness of their wheels - I do that with very few cars. Driving the RS6 I was on the receiving end of it a few times and it does make you smile quietly to yourself; the RS2 would get it more often I'd bet and the 944 never. While in a way I don't regret buying the RS6 it's largely because I know that I had (what was at that time) "the Lord of the (4) rings" - looking back I sort of wish I'd just splurged top of the market for a very nice RS2 and banked the difference in price.
Oh bu99er - off to Trademe...
I researched the backside out of the RS2 and while I can't remember the mpg now I do know it wasn't an issue for someone running, er, a 944 S2 (cab) at the time...
I know this is a 944 forum, but I'd definitely suggest an RS2 ahead of a 944T, Oli.
Someone earlier mentioned the attention a 944 gets and I thought at the time that I bet most people think it's a really expensive sportscar when it isn't (and that could easily get a negative reaction, especially these days) and petrolheads are inclined to think it's "not a real Porsche, mate". The RS2 on the other hand is an Audi 80 Avant to most eyes (a car which I contend, like the first 2 generations of Golf and not a lot else) is almost timeless; the sort you are never embarrassed to be seen in (well, maybe Nogaro blue is a bit lairy for that [
]) yet to a petrolhead it's an absolute icon.If I see an RS2 being driven I always try to catch the eye of the driver and make a small aknowledgement of the coolness of their wheels - I do that with very few cars. Driving the RS6 I was on the receiving end of it a few times and it does make you smile quietly to yourself; the RS2 would get it more often I'd bet and the 944 never. While in a way I don't regret buying the RS6 it's largely because I know that I had (what was at that time) "the Lord of the (4) rings" - looking back I sort of wish I'd just splurged top of the market for a very nice RS2 and banked the difference in price.
Oh bu99er - off to Trademe...
Neil Haughey
New member
I agree with Scott. I was very close to making finding a nice RS2 my goal but 2 things put me of;
1) They just cost far to much in todays market for what they are, for the same money one can now get a V8 M5.
2) Evo really really slated it, and the car they tested has popped up on the for sales boards. ISTR seeing it on pistonheads recently (evo said it felt like the suspension was shot so hardly a minter).
Interestingly from the same test the old straight 6 M5 evo came out on top and these cars go for peanuts these days, like 5K or 6K, not bad for a 340 Bhp super saloon.
Ultimately as with all these things the odds of finding a good one that isn't a money pit to get sorted is what would put me of any of these cars, or in the case of the V8 M5 just a potential money pit as is (fuel bills will be bad enough).
1) They just cost far to much in todays market for what they are, for the same money one can now get a V8 M5.
2) Evo really really slated it, and the car they tested has popped up on the for sales boards. ISTR seeing it on pistonheads recently (evo said it felt like the suspension was shot so hardly a minter).
Interestingly from the same test the old straight 6 M5 evo came out on top and these cars go for peanuts these days, like 5K or 6K, not bad for a 340 Bhp super saloon.
Ultimately as with all these things the odds of finding a good one that isn't a money pit to get sorted is what would put me of any of these cars, or in the case of the V8 M5 just a potential money pit as is (fuel bills will be bad enough).
I'd agree that the RS2 isn't a trackday tool, but specific to Oli's use I'd say it would be ideal. Show me a 15 year old car that couldn't benefit from a suspension refresh.
One of the best cars I've had was my e39 Beemer, but I'd avoid a cheap e39 M5 like the plague. I can't remember what it is that goes wrong with them (do they have VANOS?), but they can swallow their value again if it does. It's also another size up from the Audi 80/RS2 chassis (they are surprisingly small) so it will have its own barge issues. If you get a late one with the Nurburgring suspension pack they cost something in excess of 500 quid a corner to replace I believe. Basically it's a whole league bigger in size of car AND size of running costs; M5 stands for Multiplier x 5 when it comes to servicing.
BTW the reason the RS2 was an Avant was solely because Porsche would not be involved with a coupe version. Can you guess why?
One of the best cars I've had was my e39 Beemer, but I'd avoid a cheap e39 M5 like the plague. I can't remember what it is that goes wrong with them (do they have VANOS?), but they can swallow their value again if it does. It's also another size up from the Audi 80/RS2 chassis (they are surprisingly small) so it will have its own barge issues. If you get a late one with the Nurburgring suspension pack they cost something in excess of 500 quid a corner to replace I believe. Basically it's a whole league bigger in size of car AND size of running costs; M5 stands for Multiplier x 5 when it comes to servicing.
BTW the reason the RS2 was an Avant was solely because Porsche would not be involved with a coupe version. Can you guess why?
Neil Haughey
New member
Yes, we both mentioned the RS2 specifically because of its incredible off the line performance. ISTR that the 0-30 time of 1.8 seconds was only beaten by one production car, the McLaren F1 (although this was sometime ago, possibly other cars could do it now). Then again browsing pistonheads one needs 15 grand more or less to get one.
I know you hate impresa's Fen, but the P1 at between 8K and 10K has to be a consideration? Again the one thing (possibly the one and only) that has always impressed me with those cars is the traction of the line.
Whats wrong with the 951 anyhow, I think we all agree its a great allrounder? For me many older cars are a big let down usually because they feel so agricultural however a decent turbo still feels like a fairly refined car, spend a grand or so on getting a stage 2 kit on and they are pretty quick in anyones book. Personally I can see a strong logic for having a nice clean 951 and doing a small amount of sensible mods. Its the big spending that looks like bad value for money given that 20 grand can buy some insanity like a few year old supercharged AMG E55 or a XTR at the opposite end of the spectrum.
I know you hate impresa's Fen, but the P1 at between 8K and 10K has to be a consideration? Again the one thing (possibly the one and only) that has always impressed me with those cars is the traction of the line.
Whats wrong with the 951 anyhow, I think we all agree its a great allrounder? For me many older cars are a big let down usually because they feel so agricultural however a decent turbo still feels like a fairly refined car, spend a grand or so on getting a stage 2 kit on and they are pretty quick in anyones book. Personally I can see a strong logic for having a nice clean 951 and doing a small amount of sensible mods. Its the big spending that looks like bad value for money given that 20 grand can buy some insanity like a few year old supercharged AMG E55 or a XTR at the opposite end of the spectrum.
Didn't want competition with the 968 at a guess.
At this stage, I ought to declare myself an interested observer; while I would LOVE an RS2, they do seem to be very thirsty, and owners tales of regular sub-20mpg averages are the norm. Plus the cost of buying one would probably be triple that which I would get for my S2, the finances simply wouldn't allow such an indulgence at the mo. Alas.
Oli.
I've certainly never meant to suggest the Turbo is a bad buy, but it only makes sense if you want a specific combination of build, practicality, performance and price. Vary any one of those and you can probably do better (such as the P1 which is not even in the same hemisphere in terms of quality of materials used).
It starts to get a bit stickier recommending one to a current S2 owner however, especially if the brief is to modify it little and use it on the road 95-100% of the time.
The RS2 becomes an obvious choice if yet more practicality is needed (or if like me you have a soft spot for ridiculously quick labrador-movers). They do hold their value well though - I imagine an early RS4 is now in the same range as a nice RS2.
I'd have loved to see an RS2 coupe as I suspect it would have been a better car than the 968. It would have been better looking, at least as well built, 4wd, turbo (so faster and more tunable), 5 cylinder (so it sounds nice) etc. only the handling would have been in question. You can see why Porsche didn't want the competition.
It starts to get a bit stickier recommending one to a current S2 owner however, especially if the brief is to modify it little and use it on the road 95-100% of the time.
The RS2 becomes an obvious choice if yet more practicality is needed (or if like me you have a soft spot for ridiculously quick labrador-movers). They do hold their value well though - I imagine an early RS4 is now in the same range as a nice RS2.
I'd have loved to see an RS2 coupe as I suspect it would have been a better car than the 968. It would have been better looking, at least as well built, 4wd, turbo (so faster and more tunable), 5 cylinder (so it sounds nice) etc. only the handling would have been in question. You can see why Porsche didn't want the competition.
appletonn
New member
I think the only fundamental doubt I have about the RS2 is that with that engine slung out ahead of the front axle line, you are definitely going to miss the handling characteristics of a well sorted 944 - more a question of just how much understeer you want in any given corner, especially with a 50/50 4wd torque split[8|]
I hear what you're saying, but it's the same layout and basic engine position as the Ur Quattro, which wasn't exactly an elephant on roller skates. It's also not like a Renault Fuego where the whole engine was literally in front of the axle; it's really just one cylinder and some ancillaries that are especially far forward.
I've driven a UR-quatt once, owned by a friend who had a habit of buying very nasty examples of cars and then wondering why they never lived up to the legend they should be. This one didn't impress me, but then I didn't expect it to, and I didn't get to drive it that hard either.
Yes, the reputation of the UR-Quatt is one of a devastating rally car. (The 'grale was possibly the faster car, but they spent too much time broken, thus leaving victory for the quatts.) The handling was meant to be superb. And yet this is at odds with the fact that the engine is pretty far forwards - further forwards than would be liked for sharp handling. Physics is physics, but the reputation cannot be ignored.
Fen - you consider the Audi 80 coupe to be better looking than the 968? Crumbs, you really think the 968 to be ugly, don't you! While it's no F355 (or Miura, or E-type), I think it certainly betters the 80 Coupe. But that's just opinions. There are a few RS2 coupe's around, but they are conversions - like this one:
http://pistonheads.com/sales/522142.htm
(ETA: Close reading shows this to be an MTM-tuned S2, not a proper RS2. Apologies.)
I'll admit to being pretty torn here ... just looking at the pictures of S2's and RS2's, I am very taken with them. Out of interest Fen, you say you researched the backside out of RS2's before you nearly bought one - what did you find out about them? What were your sources of information? Forums, I'm guessing.
Looking at the prices, the S2 does seem to make a lot more financial sense than an RS2. It seems that a little over £3k gets a decent S2, whereas you can stick a 1 in front of that for an RS2. How much is there between them in practice?
Oli.
ETA: Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why this one hasn't sold?
http://pistonheads.com/sales/530371.htm (the blue one, with the alcantara interior.)
Milage high, and putting people off?
Yes, the reputation of the UR-Quatt is one of a devastating rally car. (The 'grale was possibly the faster car, but they spent too much time broken, thus leaving victory for the quatts.) The handling was meant to be superb. And yet this is at odds with the fact that the engine is pretty far forwards - further forwards than would be liked for sharp handling. Physics is physics, but the reputation cannot be ignored.
Fen - you consider the Audi 80 coupe to be better looking than the 968? Crumbs, you really think the 968 to be ugly, don't you! While it's no F355 (or Miura, or E-type), I think it certainly betters the 80 Coupe. But that's just opinions. There are a few RS2 coupe's around, but they are conversions - like this one:
http://pistonheads.com/sales/522142.htm
(ETA: Close reading shows this to be an MTM-tuned S2, not a proper RS2. Apologies.)
I'll admit to being pretty torn here ... just looking at the pictures of S2's and RS2's, I am very taken with them. Out of interest Fen, you say you researched the backside out of RS2's before you nearly bought one - what did you find out about them? What were your sources of information? Forums, I'm guessing.
Looking at the prices, the S2 does seem to make a lot more financial sense than an RS2. It seems that a little over £3k gets a decent S2, whereas you can stick a 1 in front of that for an RS2. How much is there between them in practice?
Oli.
ETA: Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why this one hasn't sold?
http://pistonheads.com/sales/530371.htm (the blue one, with the alcantara interior.)
Milage high, and putting people off?
Oli,
I used RS246.com as a forum for the RS2 research and the RS6 ownership period. I also trawled my extensive back catalogue of car mags to find the contemporary reports of the day (when it was launched, when the RS4 was launched and the RS2 beat it into a cocked hat etc. etc.)
As I recall they have an issue with cooling, probably because the rad is squished to one side to leave room for the relatively long engine in the short bay. They're fine if you keep the system properly flushed etc. but a potential problem if neglected. Again as you'd expect I think the clutch gets a hard time. Other things of note are that the tyres were model specific Dunlops marked up as 245s, but they were more like 225s in real terms and if you fit generic 245s (the "correct" Dunlops are long since discontinued) then they can touch the steering rod end and rip the sidewall [], but unfortunately lots of people don't know that so you need to be careful. I looked at a black one that Adrian Crawford was selling but he didn't want to know about getting the tyres he'd just had fitted replaced with the correct size even though I explained why the car was dangerous as it was. Lastly owners struggle with the handbrake, but it's just a 968 system (with 944 or 951 part numbers I expect) so none of us would struggle - it's a lack of understanding among Audi dealers/specialists, not a problem with the handbrake itself.
Of course it's MHO, but yes; I think a 968 with its lights up is one of the fugliest frontal aspects inflicted on the highway. It's not even ugly-cool like a 105E Anglia or Jeep Wagoneer, it's simply ugly.
edit:The blue one is probably too miley for people. Lots of them have done this sort of mileage though as they are practical, tough and reliable. I'd treat them like a 944 in terms of miles as they wear it just as well. I also think a 944 (or 968) is the best possible preparation for RS2 ownership as aside the 2.3 5 pot turbo lump it's more 968 than Audi 80 under the skin.
I used RS246.com as a forum for the RS2 research and the RS6 ownership period. I also trawled my extensive back catalogue of car mags to find the contemporary reports of the day (when it was launched, when the RS4 was launched and the RS2 beat it into a cocked hat etc. etc.)
As I recall they have an issue with cooling, probably because the rad is squished to one side to leave room for the relatively long engine in the short bay. They're fine if you keep the system properly flushed etc. but a potential problem if neglected. Again as you'd expect I think the clutch gets a hard time. Other things of note are that the tyres were model specific Dunlops marked up as 245s, but they were more like 225s in real terms and if you fit generic 245s (the "correct" Dunlops are long since discontinued) then they can touch the steering rod end and rip the sidewall [
], but unfortunately lots of people don't know that so you need to be careful. I looked at a black one that Adrian Crawford was selling but he didn't want to know about getting the tyres he'd just had fitted replaced with the correct size even though I explained why the car was dangerous as it was. Lastly owners struggle with the handbrake, but it's just a 968 system (with 944 or 951 part numbers I expect) so none of us would struggle - it's a lack of understanding among Audi dealers/specialists, not a problem with the handbrake itself.Of course it's MHO, but yes; I think a 968 with its lights up is one of the fugliest frontal aspects inflicted on the highway. It's not even ugly-cool like a 105E Anglia or Jeep Wagoneer, it's simply ugly.
edit:The blue one is probably too miley for people. Lots of them have done this sort of mileage though as they are practical, tough and reliable. I'd treat them like a 944 in terms of miles as they wear it just as well. I also think a 944 (or 968) is the best possible preparation for RS2 ownership as aside the 2.3 5 pot turbo lump it's more 968 than Audi 80 under the skin.
sawood12
New member
It doesn't look like one cyclinder judging by the photo where the strut bar and strut towers is completely behind the block. But then again if Porsche got their hands on a coupe version it probably would have been a threat to the 968 as we all know they are masters of cracking handling in cases where the engine is in the wrong place. It may take them the thick end of 40yrs, but they will crack it. The only problem with the 5cyl engine is it has a cast iron block and weighs an absolute ton. I think i've read somewhere it is heavier than a 928 engine which is effectively two 944 engines.
I have been working with a BIG audi fan for the past year or so, he actually has 2 S2 coupe 20v quatro's, the engine is a long way forward and heavy, understeer is the result, The on the road one does have a nice exhaust note with a scorpion exhaust. i think you can get them for close to S2 money. The block is very strong and they are supposed to be good for 500bhp with big boost. Its not pretty though, the avant is a much nicer looking car which I guess is why they hold there money better (and it has porsche bits)
I have been on track with a Bentley continental GT at bruntingthorpe, it was only slightly faster in a drag down the straight if it was blocking me through the bend onto the straight, with a run through the bend, (i dropped back) I passed it and it. Over a lap I was faster, with a big horsepower deficit but I hope a weight advantage. Bentley has the engine in about the same place as the RS2.
Must find the video of the laps
I have been on track with a Bentley continental GT at bruntingthorpe, it was only slightly faster in a drag down the straight if it was blocking me through the bend onto the straight, with a run through the bend, (i dropped back) I passed it and it. Over a lap I was faster, with a big horsepower deficit but I hope a weight advantage. Bentley has the engine in about the same place as the RS2.
Must find the video of the laps
I vaguely recall in an article about road test scares, a journo saying he spun an RS2 off a sliproad without warning and then down an embankment in the wet - not sure if it was a uk or foreign press car but maybe thats putting people off - I think the car was undamaged, but maybe there is some staining to the seat?
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