Beaky's Diet

[John Sims]

Well mine is finally in 100% [] - I can't comment on if the car feels different as I can't depress the clutch at the moment - I have resorted to red wine as a pain killer so that rules out any chance of further play today.

I can see that subsequent fittings would be easier. It would be in my case as I would ream out the holes within an inch of their lives - I'm not having this agro' again - life is way too short.

Weight loss is addictive and I am now giving the passenger seat serious consideration. Use of the rear seats has gone south so that removes the reason for retaining the tilt option of the original passenger seat.

Simon is right though, I could loose a stone or two from the driving seat - perhaps I'll just have another glass of wine. [8|]

 

[Peter Empson]

Hope the back gets better soon John, wine is definately a good cure []

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: PJS917

Gents,

It takes about 20 mins to get the roll hoop out, I had to so they could make yours[][][] I must admit it is much easier to put back in place if there are two of you. I think it took abot 30 mins to put mine back it with 2 of us, mind I have fitted a couple of times now.

What price did these end up at Peter: fully finished (which certainly makes them more attractive to me)?

Simon

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I have resorted to red wine as a pain killer so that rules out any chance of further play today.

I suggest taking some anti-inflamatory tablets, a long soak in a hot bath and a gentle massage.

Red wine is also good, a "belt and braces" approach can't do any harm at all. []

 

[appletonn]

John, what weight do you think Beaky is now?

With 3/4 of a tank of fuel, mine was a smidge under 1400kg (eek![8|]) when it was aligned/corner weighted and i am increasingly eyeing those oh so heavy electric seats, rear squab and spare wheel as an easy and (importantly for this road/track car) reversible means of shedding some weight before my next trackday.

Any pointers on reasonable priced/good quality bucket seats? I will wrap up my leccy ones and store them carefully in the loft!

If I could somehow shed 80kg without resorting to drastic measures, then I would be happy.

No more kebabs...

 

[944 man]

Reasonably priced and light seats are harder to find. Id aim for about 6kgs exc. mounts. Along with removing the spare wheel and tools, removing the rear seat back and replacing the seats; a polycarbnate rear window and a GRP bonnet would see you most of the way there. I realise that GRP bonnets dont look particularly smart even when painted, but I think that theyre worth it and you will always be able to re-fit the original bonnet. A good (though massively overpriced, as theyre a cheaper make brass plated) Braille battery will save you over 10kgs too!

Simon

 

[bennyboy]

I'll be weighing mine soon Nick, which is with the same cage as John, no rear seats, carpets, spare wheel or tool kit etc... oh, and even some 'RS' doorcards[]. Hoping to get my passenger seat fitted tomorrow and then it's ready for the scales. I have Corbeau Sprint seats and they are great, pretty comfy and only 8.3kg I think (in XL form like mine).
By the way, what is the capacity of our fuel tanks? That way I can subtract the weight of a full tank of fuel for a more accurate indication of the weight of the car itself.

 

[944 man]

A Recaro Apex only weighs 6.5kgs and whilst theyre a little dearer than other brands, they retain far more of their value.

 

[944 man]

Metal fuel tanks are nominally 66 litres; series two> plastic tanks are a little larger, 74 or 75 litres I think.

Simon

 

[944 man]

739 grammes per litre and 74 litres equals a shade under 55 kilos: not to be sniffed at.

 

[bennyboy]

Thanks 944 man, you saved me a job! Somebody should develop some lightweight track fuel[]

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: John Sims

...... I can't comment on if the car feels different ......

But I can now [][][].

It does. Markedly different. There were a few new squeaks initially which I assume was the hoop and shell finally aligning themselves but after that the car is almost devoid of any squeaks at all. I may be speaking too soon but even the squeak caused by the lower console moving against the lower dash moulding has gone.

The car just seems tighter and better planted.

I know it could all be psychological (cars are always quicker when you have waxed them for example) but it does feel better - newer almost. []

So has it been worth it? In the words of Churchill "Oh yes"

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

ORIGINAL: PJS917

Gents,

It takes about 20 mins to get the roll hoop out, I had to so they could make yours[][][] I must admit it is much easier to put back in place if there are two of you. I think it took abot 30 mins to put mine back it with 2 of us, mind I have fitted a couple of times now.

What price did these end up at Peter: fully finished (which certainly makes them more attractive to me)?

Simon

[]

 

[Hilux]

If I could somehow shed 80kg without resorting to drastic measures, then I would be happy.

If the weight loss is to go quicker then get driving tuition if you're on about track work. Makes your car quicker by miles and the car is kept as standard.

Also it is considered generally that 50 kg equates to 10 bhp so on a 250 bhp car to chip it to approx 270 via a Promax (or similar) method is probably cheaper than time effort and expense in fitting decent bucket seats and harnesses and the car is kept as standard.

Bigger/better brakes allow higher corner speeds however upgraded `modern` suspension enables better brakes to work properly thereby quicker lap times and the car is kept standard.

The reason I input all of the above is that you can spend thousands losing a bit of weight here and there but if the car (or the driver) is not optimised properly and cohesively the gains are marginal. Ergo there is a fine trade off (incl costs) with weight loss, improving the original dynamics and power hikes eg: lose all the carpet, seats and spare kit weight and then install a roll cage - benefits and losses in more than one way but is the car improved??


Discuss.............................[]

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

....Bigger/better brakes allow higher corner speeds...

How does that work then? []


I think the weight loss is much less about gaining extra acceleration & more about improving handling & braking. These cars are heavy to be hauling around a track. I completely agree that a good driver will make the biggest difference, followed by a set of sticky rubber, but a moderate driver should find it easier to drive a 1200kg turbo rather than a 1400kg one imho. Once you get past the first level of power hikes then it starts to get expensive, and weight loss becomes a cheaper option.

I've never driven a KW equipped car on the track, but a short road trip was very impressive. Not sure there would be much in it on the track c/w Leda.

I remain to be convinced that you need anything more than 250 brakes (+ good pads + cooling) in a standard 'ish car (say around 300hp) - and they would be even better in a lightened one. They probably make more sense in a 400hp monster like Paul's, although I think MarkK is OK with 250 brakes in his.

I don't think much of what we do with these cars could be called logical - the more track friendly you make a car, the worse it becomes as a road car. The trick is to get the right compromise.

 

[Peter Empson]

You knew I'd bite [] Seriously try removing the weight discussed from your car and tell me it doesn't make a very major difference on the road or track, you can get most of the way to 80kg very cheaply or for free (remove spare, rear seat upper, rear carpet, passenger seat etc).

I admit mine has quite a bit more weight out of it now, it will spin cold tyres in 2nd and 3rd very easily, it can be pushed around very easily by one person and has the most amazing reaction to the throttle. It is too extreme for a regular road car but all I need to do is add some carpets and I get the best of both worlds (or just keep buying lots of earplugs []).

Sure, it's no substitute for driver training, but it will make you quicker in every respect and will also make the car easier (safer) to handle.

I'm sad enough to have weighed some more bits in the last few days, the door wiring alone is 1.3kg believe it or not, and a dash (my next project hopefully) is 8.5kg which is ludicrously heavy for what it is. I then need to start on what's underneath the dash but I'm not looking forward to that so much!

 

[Hilux]

How does that work then? []

OOOps, a typo

I meant that you go into a corner later thereby reducing overall lap times.

The acceleration aspect is all about power to weight so either 1 increase power or 2 lose weight however an added impetus from excess weight is a disadvantage in a corner hence better (more stable/flatter) suspension is key.

I`m inclined to agree that you will not need more than 300 bhp to optimise these cars for to utilise fully any added power requires surgery namely brakes and suspension/tyres to gain the same benefit.

I've never driven a KW equipped car on the track, but a short road trip was very impressive. Not sure there would be much in it on the track c/w Leda.

Add Weltmeister ARB`s to KW`s and then try it [] however thats my opinion based upon my abilities.

I``ll admit I actually dont enjoy driving the 944 on track half as much as lightweight cars (even with KW/V3 & W/M ARB's) , its far too heavy and ponderous (hence my current project)

 

[appletonn]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

If I could somehow shed 80kg without resorting to drastic measures, then I would be happy.

If the weight loss is to go quicker then get driving tuition if you're on about track work. Makes your car quicker by miles and the car is kept as standard.

Also it is considered generally that 50 kg equates to 10 bhp so on a 250 bhp car to chip it to approx 270 via a Promax (or similar) method is probably cheaper than time effort and expense in fitting decent bucket seats and harnesses and the car is kept as standard.

Bigger/better brakes allow higher corner speeds however upgraded `modern` suspension enables better brakes to work properly thereby quicker lap times and the car is kept standard.

The reason I input all of the above is that you can spend thousands losing a bit of weight here and there but if the car (or the driver) is not optimised properly and cohesively the gains are marginal. Ergo there is a fine trade off (incl costs) with weight loss, improving the original dynamics and power hikes eg: lose all the carpet, seats and spare kit weight and then install a roll cage - benefits and losses in more than one way but is the car improved??


Discuss.............................[]

Totally agree about the driver improvements and that is why I invested in some tuition at the last Oulton Trackday I did in January, but the car would be a lot less hard on its brakes and tyres, not to mention the various bushes etc if it was closer to 1300kg than 1400kg. The car is very good indeed on track for a 18yr old car on road tyres and running in road trim (bar the suspension and improved brakes and a little more power...[8|]) but when you really start to push on, you do get reminded of the weight and momentum you are (hopefully!) in control of and that is the limiting factor - it doesn't really need any more power to have fun on track, but the effect of shedding 60-80kg on the braking and turning would be noticeable I beleive.

That said, I am still undecided about how far to go![8|][]

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

.....I``ll admit I actually dont enjoy driving the 944 on track half as much as lightweight cars.......

I would agree with that. However, the 944 is warmer when it is cold, dry inside when it is wet, doesn't need to be towed to the circuit, can be used every day when it isn't on the track and might protect you enough to walk away if you were hit by a steel car on a track day.

Racing a Westfield on a warm dry day is beyond all doubt the most fun I have ever had bar nothing. All the cars were the same size and all the drivers around me of similar ability. Under the circumstances I felt relatively safe. Track days in the Westfield were less comfortable because there were idiots in charge of great big heavy cars which, if they hit you, would most likely kill you - i.e. I felt vulnerable. Based on this, while a compromise, a 944 is IMHO one of the best value track day cars available. I wouldn't go back to doing track days in a plastic car as I am too aware of my mortality these days.

Where the 944 is also great fun is it isn't so valuable and precious that you can't play around with it. We are all different. I kill brakes (most likely through bad technique) so upgrading brakes works well for me. I like the added information you are presented with when sitting in a shell seat - the car talks to you much more - so that works. A harness adds to that but I wouldn't use a harness without extra roll over protection (hence the roll bar).

Big brakes and roll bars add weight but rear wipers that you seldom use, a spare wheel that doesn't fit over the brakes, rear seat backs for rear seats you can't get to are all things that are pointless carrying around with you.

Loosing weight is never detrimental to dynamics (you can move weight around if it becomes an issue) but is none the less a compromise, like any modification. You may have less convenience (no rear wiper or rear seats, manual mirrors etc.) and less comfort (reduced sound deadening, no A/C) but if these things are unimportant to you any way it is little compromise.

There is no denying that lashing a car about will devalue it but, if you are using it for track days value shouldn't be that important.

 

[John Sims]

The other thing about weight in a car is it is dynamic - it weighs more than when you put it on the bathroom scales.

Do what!?!

Consider the old days pre baby seats. It was shown that, while a mother could hold a baby without issue, under heavy braking the baby would (through the introduction of velocity on the weight) gain sufficient weight that she could no longer restrain it. The same dynamic weight gain must be true for every component in the car.

This is pure speculation on my part and no doubt someone (944man []) will claim it is complete tosh, but none the less.

Consider:- 1.5 ton car brakes heavily from speed. As we know the CoG moves and for simplicity sake we will say it moves to the front of the car to the point where the rear tyres are exerting no weight at all. What is the
weight (or rather force) on the front tyres? 1.5 ton? Considering the flying baby issue I think it is more than 1.5 ton.

This being the case the advantage of loosing weight is dynamically greater than the weight you are loosing.