Beaky's Diet

[944 man]

I you wanted to compete in a Proban suit Id say "hold on, get a three layer FIA suit and wear an approved balaclava too". I also feel that FIA approved 3" belts are far better. My point is that the Nomex lining wont make any practical difference: whether youre wearing nothing ese, or if youre wearing everyhting else. Its a redundant arguement now though, as we will all have to wear Type A/F helmets from next year, because the MSA have adopted the FIA standard (as far as Im aware theyre still allowing people to wear useless Proban suits; something they should have addressed years ago and a far more worthwhile change!...).

Simon

 

[John Sims]

I thought I would resurrect the thread now I can add something meaningful.

I have calculated the weight of the roll hoop and, using several different sources to confirm tube weights have come up with a weight of .....(drum roll)....15 Kgs ( 33 lbs) . This would tie up with my perception of the weight and would make sense when a full cage is 30-40 Kg's.

So my quest to loose some weight is still in the right direction. As I noted in my very first post, ditching the spare wheel, jack, and rear wiper gained me 15 Kgs. I have put that back, partially higher up but much closer to the polar moment of the car so this isn't bad.

I have lost further weight with the split seat backs and again by swapping the drivers seat for a shell seat. I have another shell seat on order and will make a proper comparison on this occasion so should be significantly better off.

That will conclude the easy weight loss programme (aside the rear carpet) and we then get in to more drastic (and expensive) measures.

For my use I am not convinced that I need to go that far. Track use is periodic with 260 mile round trips to Cornbury being more the order of the day. A radio, heating, demist, aircon, reasonable sound deadening are almost necessities for this trip so aren't going yet.

I thought Peter's door panels were superb and some replacement mirrors would also not go amiss so there are still some items to address yet. [8|]

 

[944 man]

Id look at a cheapish GRP bonnet (<£150 + paint) and a polycarbonate hatch. Neither will enhance the vehicle cosmetically (although itd look nicer to me), but with reasonable paint and a regular wizz over with Meguiars PlastX theyll look passable and you can carefully store the original parts to re-fit. On the plus side youll lose 30* kilos of weight from your extremities (speaking of which, one stone = 6kgs []). Add an Oddysey battery and you will save another 10kgs or thereabouts too. Combined with the 10+ kilogrammes that youll save by replacing the original electric seat, that could be a worthwhile extra 50 kilogrammes saved, without compromising your day-to-day usability.

Simon

* dont hold me to this: Ive picked up a polycarbonate hatch and a glass hatch in my garage and its far lighter, so I think its a conservative estimate for both...

 

[944 man]

A high-torqu starter will save weight and turn it over with more enthusiams too. Thatll cost about £100, but its a worthwhile upgrade even discounting the weight saving. You might consider underdriven pulleys also: releasing a little more power and weighing less.

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

A high-torqu starter will save weight and turn it over with more enthusiams too. Thatll cost about £100, but its a worthwhile upgrade even discounting the weight saving.

Any recommendations? It's on my to do list (along with the alternator).

 

[944 man]

Ive seen an advert somewhere Pete, stating 'all applications' from about £90+; but Im struggling to remember where.

 

[944 man]

They all seem to use a very common/cheap Nipon Denso starter for their core parts, but a quick search hasnt found the company/advert that Im referring to, so far.

 

[944 man]

If you cant find a ready made starter then it may be possible to have an adapter made up and use a ND starter from a breakers (they last forever). Im wishing that Id saved that advert carefully now!

 

[John Sims]

While I could be tempted with a polycarbonate hatch I am reluctant to go for a lightweight bonnet. The bonnet is an integral part of the front crash protection - not that it is my intention to test it.

I also fear that I could still find some weight reduction from the area of the drivers seat - most notably the heavy nut holding the steering wheel. [8|]

 

[Neil Haughey]

John I have lost just under a stone in weight, or about 6 Kg now down to 10 1/2 stone but I may get down to 10 stone when I get fit again.

Once you have struggled with the weight of the bonnet I think you may feel different. I was chatting to one of the racers at the weekend and he was only 15 Kg over the reg limit but amazingly had all standard panels on the front end except the bonnet. There is some merit in this as my brother tells me the front and rear bumper covers weigh hardly anything and we believe a lot of the weight in the wings is not metal. Same story with headlights, you could strip out everything and just leave the bins and covers with something to hold them in place getting rid of the majority of the weight, as this racer guy had done and in theory would allow a race car to be converted back to road use.

 

[944 man]

Based on my experience of crashed 924s/944s/968s (Ive seen scores), Im not overly concerned about losing the bonnet. I dont feel that it adds a great deal, if anything at all and the 924 was so (relatively) heavy because, its design was based on the Porsche / VW safety car study...

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: Peter Empson

ORIGINAL: 944 man

A high-torqu starter will save weight and turn it over with more enthusiams too. Thatll cost about £100, but its a worthwhile upgrade even discounting the weight saving.

Any recommendations? It's on my to do list (along with the alternator).

It was a misleading advert Pete. They have a ready-to-go 911 starter for <'89 applications, but nothing for the 944. They offer a made to measure service with prices ranging from £170-£320, but Im wondering whether another firm could machine up the required adapter for a fraction of the price allowing a used Nipon Denso starter to be used?

http://shop1.actinicexpress.co.uk/shops/Rat_Sport/index.php?cat=Starter_Motor_High_Torque

 

[pauljmcnulty]

While I could be tempted with a polycarbonate hatch I am reluctant to go for a lightweight bonnet. The bonnet is an integral part of the front crash protection - not that it is my intention to test it.

I can't see this myself. Obviously, we'd have to crash-test a car without it's bonnet to prove the point.

As we were discussing at Frontrunner, we were warned not to press down on the bonnet of our Legacy as it's only a skin over the crash structure. I'd have thought that there are far stronger load-bearing areas within the engine-bay of a 944? [8|]

 

[Peter Empson]

Thanks Simon, much appreciated, I was hoping you'd have a tried and tested solution, I've asked a couple of vendors and no one had anyhting other than 911 fitments listed. Having a bracket made will be no problem apart from finding the time.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

While I could be tempted with a polycarbonate hatch I am reluctant to go for a lightweight bonnet. The bonnet is an integral part of the front crash protection - not that it is my intention to test it.

I can't see this myself. Obviously, we'd have to crash-test a car without it's bonnet to prove the point.

As we were discussing at Frontrunner, we were warned not to press down on the bonnet of our Legacy as it's only a skin over the crash structure. I'd have thought that there are far stronger load-bearing areas within the engine-bay of a 944? [8|]

There are and the bonnet may well add little as Simon has suggested. It obviously adds something as the hinges have additional brackets to lock the bonnet down. It would take a lot of energy to bend a bonnet and all dispersed energy is good if you are having a crash.......it is all a bit of an excuse though as, given the money I would have one like a shot. [8|]

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

John I have lost just under a stone in weight, or about 6 Kg now down to 10 1/2 stone but I may get down to 10 stone when I get fit again......

I am pretty convinced the nut holding my steering wheel could happily be 15 Kgs lighter. Despite thinking slimming thoughts Wii Fit suggests it isn't happening. [] []

 

[sawood12]

What the bonnet may well do is triangulate other load bearing members in the engine bay such that the bonnet itself is not necessarily adding any stiffness or structural integrity itself, but in a crash it may help to tie other areas of the structure together. Personally I don't see the point in replacing body panels with CF or GRP unless you are going the whole hog like Neil and going for a track dedicated car. For a predominantly street car where you want to retain some of the creature comforts and not compromise aesthetics too much I think the opportunities for significant weight loss is limited. In anycase even at 1300kg's or so I don't consider our cars to be that heavy when compared to other modern sportscars and hot hatches. Even a GT3 is around the same weight, so I don't agree with the notion that our cars are particularly heavy. They may have been back in the '80's compared to their competition, but how many other cars from the '80's have survived 20yrs and are still as in good a nick as our cars? Not many, and the ones that have tend to be German.

I do think there is an oppportunity to do something with the rear hatch though. That is one area where the weight can be significantly reduced and C of G lowered. Its a shame there isn't a Polycarbonate or Lexan hatch intended and more suitable for street use. It would certainly help to eliminate the creeking hatch syndrome.

 

[Peter Empson]

ORIGINAL: sawood12
Personally I don't see the point in replacing body panels with CF or GRP unless you are going the whole hog like Neil and going for a track dedicated car. For a predominantly street car where you want to retain some of the creature comforts and not compromise aesthetics too much I think the opportunities for significant weight loss is limited.

If you haven't already, I really think you ought to give weight reduction a try in these cars, maybe not the panels but even small changes make a big difference, I've been able to feel almost every change I've made over the years. I think it would be very easy to keep most of the creature comforts (does anyone really need electric seats - without a memory setting pretty useless) and still save a reasonable amount of weight.

I suppose what I'm saying it, if you just remove 50kg from the car (all possible in under an hour and just as easy to reinstate - remove the passenger seat, rear seat back, spare tyre, boot carpet), I'd be amazed if you didn't notice a very substantial improvement. Clubsport and RS Porsches do not always have huge weight savings, which I think helps show a little change can make a big difference.

Regarding aesthetics, after market panels can be very convincing, for example I don't think many people would know I have GF wings without me pointing it out to them. The bonnet I have is a little more noticeable (and amusingly I noticed when getting it into sunlight the other day that the bonnet they must have taken the mould from had an indentation where its been pushed down to close it, many 944's have this so I suppose I could claim it actually makes it more accurate a copy [8|]).

ORIGINAL: sawood12
In anycase even at 1300kg's or so I don't consider our cars to be that heavy when compared to other modern sportscars and hot hatches. Even a GT3 is around the same weight, so I don't agree with the notion that our cars are particularly heavy.

It seems a lot of people that have weighed 944's have found them to be much heavier than expected. However I'm not sure how accurate modern car weights are in comparison. The temptation for me is to look at a car like the GT3 and see how we get close to or exceed its power to weight for a fraction of the cost, then we can really start to have some fun...

ORIGINAL: sawood12
I do think there is an oppportunity to do something with the rear hatch though. That is one area where the weight can be significantly reduced and C of G lowered. Its a shame there isn't a Polycarbonate or Lexan hatch intended and more suitable for street use. It would certainly help to eliminate the creeking hatch syndrome.

It's definately a good saving, and would be first on my list after doing the seats and the like. I think you can get screens suitable for street use, my new one should hopefully last well (it's got all the latest coatings) and is really well made. The only downside is you may not get such a good seal around the edges, depending upon how well the frame is fitted. My old cheap and nasty screen was useable for about 3 years (I kept it on for much longer...) but then it was left outside all the time which caused discolouration.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

In anycase even at 1300kg's or so I don't consider our cars to be that heavy when compared to other modern sportscars and hot hatches.

I've just been reading Michael Cottons monthly column in Porsche Post and if you want to enter a GT3 in this years FIA GT2 category with two pro drivers and start getting some weight penalties due to results then they'll be very close to 1400kilos after ballast is added!!!!!!

Kind of removes the incentive for manufacturers to actually make them as light as possible [&:]

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: Peter Empson

ORIGINAL: sawood12
Personally I don't see the point in replacing body panels with CF or GRP unless you are going the whole hog like Neil and going for a track dedicated car.  For a predominantly street car where you want to retain some of the creature comforts and not compromise aesthetics too much I think the opportunities for significant weight loss is limited. 

If you haven't already, I really think you ought to give weight reduction a try in these cars, maybe not the panels but even small changes make a big difference, I've been able to feel almost every change I've made over the years.

Very true Peter, I let my brother drive the car to Donny and back, he hadn't driven it in ages. With the cloth front seats and front carpet back in it was about 90 Kg down on a complete S2. He was amazed how much better and alive the car felt. The first time you notice it is when your in 5th on the motorway and pull out to overtake a lorry. Like he said you just flex your foot on the peddle and immediately the car is there up to speed. In a standard car you actually have to accelerate. The difference is very noticeable. Having said all that I agree with Scott, unsurprisingly really as like he says we are going the whole hog. I came to the decision that I really don't like cars that are messed with to much, a bit like my 968 for example where I put brand new standard Sachs shocks on which cost more then aftermarket Koni's. Once you start playing with a car I found I was never really happy with it, to much of a compromise hence the desire to build a full on race/track spec car. I think what some of you guys have been doing with KW v3 and level 1/2 tune up kits is good desirable stuff because its just improving on what is already there without really loosing anything.