Could the 718 replacement be an EV?
- Thread starter Motorhead
- Start date
Jeff,Motorhead said:
I am sure that progress will be made in the coming years. Whether the UK will keep pace with the changes is another issue. I was dead against electric vehicles at one time. My veiws have change, however I wouldn't say I was championing electric vehicles but I can see a good future for them.
Ray
Technetium
New member
Other? 2082 was the number of August registrations claimed by AutoExpress for the Tesla model 3. Odd.ralphmusic said:SMMT web site...
[h3][/h3]
I suppose it's possible Philip. Tesla Model 3 UK deliveries only started in late June, and there were a significant number of orders to fulfill with customers having been awaiting delivery for more than 2 years, probably nearer 3 years. It would make sense from the production standpoint for Tesla to manufacture a large number of RHD cars for the UK market. What will be interesting is to see whether or not the August sales figures are maintained over the coming months.
Jeff
Jeff
Here's a piece from Car on the possible 2023 718 replacement. I think the most important thing to note is Porsche's investment in the Croatian hypercar manufacturer Rimac, who with their extensive electric sports car experience will no doubt be working on the car.
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/porsche/electric-boxster-and-cayman-sports-car/
If the next Cayman/Boxster is to be Porsche's first fully electric sports car it could possibly have more power - or at least better acceleration - than a 911 Carrera, even if the 992.2 has a mild hybrid powertrain. I wonder how Porsche are going to handle that?
Jeff
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/porsche/electric-boxster-and-cayman-sports-car/
If the next Cayman/Boxster is to be Porsche's first fully electric sports car it could possibly have more power - or at least better acceleration - than a 911 Carrera, even if the 992.2 has a mild hybrid powertrain. I wonder how Porsche are going to handle that?
Jeff
That sounds a better alternative for my 80th birthday in 2023 than my present favourite..
Technetium
New member
Motorhead said:
Jeff
Thanks for posting that link. If the new 718 Cayman is anything like that artist's impression it will be stunning. A proper "mini-supercar". Even if it "only" has 400 bhp (as indicated), it would almost certainly out accelerate a mid range 911, at least off the line. All the manufacturers are going to have to come to terms with this amazing feature of high-end EVs and how to market them. It will be interesting to see how VW play this next year with the ID.3, as the top of the range model will probably be able to embarrass a Golf GTI, and maybe even a Golf R.
The planned development cycle (release in 2023) could represent perfect timing for Porsche with the Cayman/Boxster. A lot will happen with the re-charging infrastructure over the next 2-3 years and Porsche will probably be first to market in this all-important £50k sports car sector. I am pleased that Porsche seems to be going all-out electric, as hybrid models only represent a stepping stone and involve a lot of compromise. I'd rather have the real deal.
Phil
Phil,
Agreed, that's a terrific rendering ... whether or not it materialises as something close to it we'll have to wait and see. As you say, it's going to interesting to see how the marketing departments of all the major car companies address the performance issue when they're offering both IC engined and full electric vehicles.
As I mentioned, the potential input from Rimac is going to be very influential in how the vehicle is engineered, and in particular the location of the batteries in a low-slung sports car which is much more challenging than in an SUV.
Here's the latest on Rimac's latest €2m hypercar:
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-ev/rimac-c_two--new-details-revealed/41346
A 1.85 second 0-60mph time and 258mph top speed - bonkers..!
Jeff
Agreed, that's a terrific rendering ... whether or not it materialises as something close to it we'll have to wait and see. As you say, it's going to interesting to see how the marketing departments of all the major car companies address the performance issue when they're offering both IC engined and full electric vehicles.
As I mentioned, the potential input from Rimac is going to be very influential in how the vehicle is engineered, and in particular the location of the batteries in a low-slung sports car which is much more challenging than in an SUV.
Here's the latest on Rimac's latest €2m hypercar:
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-ev/rimac-c_two--new-details-revealed/41346
A 1.85 second 0-60mph time and 258mph top speed - bonkers..!
Jeff
I read recently a couple of points that may be a reality check.
[<font]First that the required minimum 50 km range on battery-only power would require around 10 kWh of batteries. The weight of a Cayman with currently available cell technology could be over 1,800kg.[<font]
[<font]Secondly, most EV projections assume a big reduction in the cost per kWh of batteries which is unlikely because of the scarcity of materials, who controls access, limited production facilities, and the sheer demand volume.
[<font]First that the required minimum 50 km range on battery-only power would require around 10 kWh of batteries. The weight of a Cayman with currently available cell technology could be over 1,800kg.[<font]
[<font]Secondly, most EV projections assume a big reduction in the cost per kWh of batteries which is unlikely because of the scarcity of materials, who controls access, limited production facilities, and the sheer demand volume.
Ralph,
I think current lithium-ion battery weight and size are significant obstacles to the pure electric sports car, although Rimac continue to demonstrate the feasibility of such a vehicle, albeit on a prohibitively expensive hypercar:
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-ev/rimac-c_two--new-details-revealed/41346
I'm sure Porsche will be seeking a greater Rimac input now that they've strengthened their partnership.
On another forum post it's been suggested that the next stage will be solid-state batteries which offer a higher capacity in a smaller package, charge faster, last longer and won't require space-sapping complex cooling systems. That should go a long way to addressing the battery weight and size issues for a sports car but not of course the potential scarcity of raw materials with increased demand that you mention.
Jeff
I think current lithium-ion battery weight and size are significant obstacles to the pure electric sports car, although Rimac continue to demonstrate the feasibility of such a vehicle, albeit on a prohibitively expensive hypercar:
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-ev/rimac-c_two--new-details-revealed/41346
I'm sure Porsche will be seeking a greater Rimac input now that they've strengthened their partnership.
On another forum post it's been suggested that the next stage will be solid-state batteries which offer a higher capacity in a smaller package, charge faster, last longer and won't require space-sapping complex cooling systems. That should go a long way to addressing the battery weight and size issues for a sports car but not of course the potential scarcity of raw materials with increased demand that you mention.
Jeff
Jeff,
I thought Lithium-Ion and other Lithium cell chemistries were solid state. I've yet to see any persuasive evidence of any break-through in cell chemistry that will materially impact cell kg/kWh nor £/kWh. All the major advances in extending power/capacity of battery packs have been in power management strategies. Take a look at what Rimac offer
Their Concept_One Battery Pack's capacity is 82kWh and weighs 420kg, so assuming as a rule of thumb 10kWh providing a 50km range, that will give a 410km range, comparable to a Cayman's 65L tank. We can take out the current drive train weight of maybe 350kg and add back 420kg plus all the motors ?kg. I saw one projection that suggested an electric 911 would be 1,900kg.
And at what cost?
It is doable but porkies will be even porkier and without substantial government investment in charging infrastructure and in subsidies, I don't see a business case without imagining a completely different world transport requirement to today's.
I thought Lithium-Ion and other Lithium cell chemistries were solid state. I've yet to see any persuasive evidence of any break-through in cell chemistry that will materially impact cell kg/kWh nor £/kWh. All the major advances in extending power/capacity of battery packs have been in power management strategies. Take a look at what Rimac offer
Their Concept_One Battery Pack's capacity is 82kWh and weighs 420kg, so assuming as a rule of thumb 10kWh providing a 50km range, that will give a 410km range, comparable to a Cayman's 65L tank. We can take out the current drive train weight of maybe 350kg and add back 420kg plus all the motors ?kg. I saw one projection that suggested an electric 911 would be 1,900kg.
And at what cost?
It is doable but porkies will be even porkier and without substantial government investment in charging infrastructure and in subsidies, I don't see a business case without imagining a completely different world transport requirement to today's.
Technetium
New member
ralphmusic said:
I think Jeff was referring to a discussion “Electric vehicles – battery or hydrogen powered?” in the General section.
You are right, conventional Li-ion batteries will make lardy vehicles even lardier.
For example, the new Taycan is a remarkable car in many ways, but it weighs a massive 2250 kg, of which 620 kg is the battery pack!
So the S model “only” manages a range of 265 miles (426 km), even with a huge battery pack rated at 93 Kwh.
I think this is called “chasing your tail”.
Strictly speaking, we should use the term “Lithium ion solid state batteries” for the devices currently under development.
The cell chemistry is indeed similar, but the key - from an energy density point of view - is using lithium metal as the anode.
Also, the fact that the electrolyte is a true solid (conventional Li-ion batteries use volatile solvents) has lots of other potential benefits.
A non-exhaustive list would include the following:
* Much higher energy density.
[A figure of 500 Wh per kg is realistic (i.e. a factor of 2 higher than the battery pack in a Tesla Model 3) but some claim that the gain could be much higher (up to x5)].
* Potential range of over 500 miles (800 km) for an average sized car.
* Intrinsically safer and generates a lot less heat (maybe up to 70% less) during operation, so less need for expensive, heavy cooling apparatus.
* No issue with high temperature operation, as the performance of SSB’s increases with temperature - good to well over 100 degrees C.
* Will allow for faster recharging.
* No cobalt needed.
The remaining big challenge to be overcome is extreme low temperature operation, but I think this will also be solved within a couple of years, given the sheer number of universities and private research companies working on it – many in collaboration with the big car makers.
Finally, speaking of porkies, I see that the conservatives have pledged (I think in politics that means "we'll do our best") to spend £1 billion on the charging infrastructure if elected. We'll see...
Phil
Thanks for the above.
BTW, I thought the technology started with Lithium anodes before abandoning this approach and yes there are a lot of groups seeking holy grails.
As for charging stations; we have around 10,000 petrol stations with maybe an average of 6 pumps capable of servicing (but with lots of idle time) at least one vehicle every 10 minutes (I have to buy sweets and flowers).
UK total annual vehicle mileage is over 300bn miles / 480bn km so maybe 10bn gallons of fuel from 60k pumps.
With fast charging, would that mean 60k new charging units or would more be required? - a national government sponsored infrastructure project indeed.
An interesting challenge ahead, even before the issues of UK electricity generation capacity, grid storage, and access to raw materials in volume.
BTW, I thought the technology started with Lithium anodes before abandoning this approach and yes there are a lot of groups seeking holy grails.
As for charging stations; we have around 10,000 petrol stations with maybe an average of 6 pumps capable of servicing (but with lots of idle time) at least one vehicle every 10 minutes (I have to buy sweets and flowers).
UK total annual vehicle mileage is over 300bn miles / 480bn km so maybe 10bn gallons of fuel from 60k pumps.
With fast charging, would that mean 60k new charging units or would more be required? - a national government sponsored infrastructure project indeed.
An interesting challenge ahead, even before the issues of UK electricity generation capacity, grid storage, and access to raw materials in volume.
Yes, thanks for filling us in on solid state battery tech Phil. It does sound as though it would begin to address some of the issues associated with current lithium-ion batteries.
If Ralph's assumption that 60k new charging units will be required within say 10-years, that would mean installing 15-20 units a day, and counting - a very tall order for both national and local government with all the other infrastructure projects being "promised" in this election round.
Anyway, this discussion is probably more appropriate to the other post Phil has mentioned:
https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1043403
Jeff
If Ralph's assumption that 60k new charging units will be required within say 10-years, that would mean installing 15-20 units a day, and counting - a very tall order for both national and local government with all the other infrastructure projects being "promised" in this election round.
Anyway, this discussion is probably more appropriate to the other post Phil has mentioned:
https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1043403
Jeff
The latest speculative article on an all electric Cayman, although at around 1,700kg it would be a bit lardy:
https://insideevs.com/news/398762/porsche-e718-detailed-probably-coming/
It looks as though the piece is an extract from an Auto Motor und Sport interview with Frank-Steffen Walliser, Porsche's head of motorsport:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sportwagen/interview-frank-steffen-walliser-porsche/
Other than resorting to Google, anyone care to translate?
Jeff
https://insideevs.com/news/398762/porsche-e718-detailed-probably-coming/
It looks as though the piece is an extract from an Auto Motor und Sport interview with Frank-Steffen Walliser, Porsche's head of motorsport:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sportwagen/interview-frank-steffen-walliser-porsche/
Other than resorting to Google, anyone care to translate?
Jeff
Technetium
New member
Jeff, the insideevs piece reads a bit like old news. We knew in the Autumn of last year that an all-electric 718 was "on the cards".
Still no official confirmation of timescales course, but it is a very logical development for Porsche, so it's hard to believe that they are not well on with it behind the scenes.
That interview in German actually doesn't say much about a possible future E-718, apart from the possible weight figure of 1700 kg, which you have already highlighted.
That is also just an estimate of course, but powerful electric motors would easily compensate for a weight gain of a 200-300 kg.
When you see what Porsche have done with the 2.3 tonne Taycan, the performance figures for an E-718 could be "off the charts".
Will be interesting to see where that then leaves the 911.
Phil
Still no official confirmation of timescales course, but it is a very logical development for Porsche, so it's hard to believe that they are not well on with it behind the scenes.
That interview in German actually doesn't say much about a possible future E-718, apart from the possible weight figure of 1700 kg, which you have already highlighted.
That is also just an estimate of course, but powerful electric motors would easily compensate for a weight gain of a 200-300 kg.
When you see what Porsche have done with the 2.3 tonne Taycan, the performance figures for an E-718 could be "off the charts".
Will be interesting to see where that then leaves the 911.
Phil
Agreed that it didn't bring anything new to the table Phil. As you say, it was late last year that the management indicated that a decision was imminent on the 718's replacement, so we should be seeing some development hacks running around fairly soon if the car's going to be up and running in 2-3 years time. I suspect that like the Macan, Porsche may well run ICE and BEV versions of the cars for a while, with a mild update of the 718 either later this year or next year to keep it reasonably fresh (front and rear bumpers and maybe an electronic instrument panel like the 992?).
I don't think Porsche know what to do with the 911, although they've made provision for some form of mild hybridisation of the 992 for the next update. Battery location/size and increased weight I believe are the main concerns if they want to maintain the ridiculous 2+2 (legless dwarfs) configuration. There's more space for batteries in the mid-engine configuration.
Jeff
I don't think Porsche know what to do with the 911, although they've made provision for some form of mild hybridisation of the 992 for the next update. Battery location/size and increased weight I believe are the main concerns if they want to maintain the ridiculous 2+2 (legless dwarfs) configuration. There's more space for batteries in the mid-engine configuration.
Jeff
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