The £45k LHD 64RS

[sambaman]

well it ACTUALLY went like this..........

--- Chrisg4yxz@aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> > In a message dated 29/07/2007 21:07:29 GMT
> Standard
> > Time,
> > vwrelics1@btopenworld.com writes:
> >
> > Chris....chill out buddy....there are plenty that
> > havent been painted..........i know my job....
> >
> > good luck.keith
> >
> > www.911heaven.net
> >
> >
> > No need to chill here, maybe you don't know your
> job
> > as well as you think.
> >
> > Buddy.
> >
> > Happy hunting,
> >
> >
> > Chris.
> >

ORIGINAL: ChrisW

Ian and Stewart -- no problem.

Ian -- I love the sound of your car --- well done --- I am turning Martime Blue with envy (almost !)

The Rubystone Red car is with Gmund --- ex-Willie Green ? and has had a "fullsome" life --- but if Andrew has tidied the essentials it should be an interesting track proposition.

'Just had a dealer in York telling me that there are plenty of unpainted 964RS around. At sensible money, this has not been my experience !

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: RSR

Not sure which Red car is for sale on Piston heads but I looked at one from up north near warrington, owned by a chap called Julian Thompson if my memory is correct. This car had damage all down the lef hand side. New wing, door skin, and filler in rear wing.

Paul, according to Julian, not when you looked at it at the time you went to buy it from him, --- but that must have been well after the Autofarm work had been completed.

It is correct that the original drivers door fittings had been rebuilt into a replacement door panel by Autofarm after the repainting. I also spoke with Mikey at Autofarm who did the job and I have full details of every nut, bolt and hour of labour that was used.

If other work had been done prior to that, you can be sure that Mikey would have known ...

And I am pretty certain that nothing has been done since ...

As an aside, all numbered panels are correct and unblemished. I haven't removed to door skins to hunt for numbers (?) within --- but if you fancy showing me how to do this ?

Chris.

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: sambaman

well it ACTUALLY went like this..........

--- Chrisg4yxz@aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> > In a message dated 29/07/2007 21:07:29 GMT
> Standard
> > Time,
> > vwrelics1@btopenworld.com writes:
> >
> > Chris....chill out buddy....there are plenty that
> > havent been painted..........i know my job....
> >
> > good luck.keith
> >
> > www.911heaven.net
> >
> >
> > No need to chill here, maybe you don't know your
> job
> > as well as you think.
> >
> > Buddy.
> >
> > Happy hunting,
> >
> >
> > Chris.
> >

ORIGINAL: ChrisW

Ian and Stewart -- no problem.

Ian -- I love the sound of your car --- well done --- I am turning Martime Blue with envy (almost !)

The Rubystone Red car is with Gmund --- ex-Willie Green ? and has had a "fullsome" life --- but if Andrew has tidied the essentials it should be an interesting track proposition.

'Just had a dealer in York telling me that there are plenty of unpainted 964RS around. At sensible money, this has not been my experience !

So Keith, how much did you pay for the Specialist Cars RS -- it was up at £49k ??

You wanted to pay me under £40k --- with plenty around ?

Have you checked if all the paint on your new RS is original ? I saw the car at Harewood and seem to recall that it was not ...

P.S. Here's the rest of the conversation ....

No problem --- I have a dealer interested at more than you were proposing. Find a car that hasn't been painted --- the question isn't if, the question is only, how well. You can't find better than Autofarm. Chris. P.S. Are '73RS' marked down for any post manufacture paintwork ? Or you could pay £60k for the really low mileage one that is original ?

---- to which you replied as above --- and after which we kissed and made up !

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: jon.b

Gmund car has 110k miles at £33,995, Strasse car is 53k kilometres by the looks of it at £35,995. Different Rubystone cars.
http://www.strasse.co.uk/cars.asp

This does seem a good value car, what's the story ?

Sambaman ?

 

[jason]

ORIGINAL: ChrisW

ORIGINAL: jon.b

Gmund car has 110k miles at £33,995, Strasse car is 53k kilometres by the looks of it at £35,995. Different Rubystone cars.
http://www.strasse.co.uk/cars.asp

This does seem a good value car, what's the story ?

Sambaman ?

I'm sure Strasse have bought and sold that car a few times over the years.

 

[jason]

ORIGINAL: ChrisW
You can't find better than Autofarm.

I presume that's your opinion rather than fact! []

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: jason

ORIGINAL: ChrisW
You can't find better than Autofarm.

I presume that's your opinion rather than fact! []

It was a statement of mine in a private email to a prospective purchaser who turned out to be a dealer.

Jason, you are quite correct that is was a statement of opinion, and for the forum should be qualified as such.

Certainly Autofarm are one of only very fewcompanies specialising in rebuilding the early and more valuable cars, so at least some others must hold the same view. Their work is very expensive and I would be happy for anybody to use my Red car as an illustration of their skills.

I hope this is not a circular argument !

 

[mark piper]

Paul. If that car had indeed had the damage that you state, why were you still willing to offer Julian circa £35k for it? He told me that the deal fell through because you wanted the wheels included too. Is that not correct?

I know that the previous owner had indeed damaged the car, but Julian spent a lot of money with Autofarm to sort that. Are you sure you didn't look at it before he owned it? I'm sure you look at many of these....

The £33,995 car is the afore-mentioned Willie Green car - previously offered by a trader at £25,995. I doubt the paint is original on that car.

 

[clubsport]

I am suprised individual cars are being mentioned, I thought we all went off and did they by email, only if a prospective genuine buyer?

So the 114k mile car may have original paint,,,surely with wear and tear over such miles, a car with a recent high quality paint job would be worth more and easier to sell?

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: clubsport

I am suprised individual cars are being mentioned, I thought we all went off and did they by email, only if a prospective genuine buyer?

So the 114k mile car may have original paint,,,surely with wear and tear over such miles, a car with a recent high quality paint job would be worth more and easier to sell?

As an honest private vendor, I must admit to being surprised to read a dealer who almost bought the same car himself (only disagreeing on price --- and at the time, quite a high one at that) --- proposing such a potentially damning summary of the same vehicle.

My question is, why ?

To be honest, I have contacted both my prospective purchasers and have made them fully aware of this dialogue.

Further, I have told them that I am delaying the sale in order that anybody who is interested may make their own inspection and form their own opinion of the vehilcle.

Paul, this offer is also open to you --- and Keith, for you (Sambaman) ?

 

[Stewart H]

Seems I inavdertantly started this off with what I thought might be a helpful post for someone looking for an RS. For that, I am sorry. To help some of us who are new to this forum, it would be useful to know who amongst our (usually) friendly gang are dealers/traders - don't want to go round treading on eggshells.

 

[jason]

Stewart,

The ones on here I know of are

Sambaman (keith) runs 911heaven.net

RSR (Paul McLean) runs gtclassics.co.uk

and Ninemeister (Colin Belton) runs ....well you can guess that one

All however are huge enthusiasts of the RS and racing porsches.

 

[Stewart H]

Thanks Jason. I'll leave winding them up to the more seasoned members.

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: Stewart H

Seems I inavdertantly started this off with what I thought might be a helpful post for someone looking for an RS. For that, I am sorry. To help some of us who are new to this forum, it would be useful to know who amongst our (usually) friendly gang are dealers/traders - don't want to go round treading on eggshells.

Stewart, no problem.

I am very happy to have this as an open discussion.

A good car is not necessarily a good car because it is offered by a dealer, and it's not neccessarily a bad car if it's offered privately --- which after all is where dealers find their stock.

What I need (and probably the forum needs) is to know what the real facts are relating to a particular car we are seriously interesated in buying, and allow this information to be accounted for in the price --- why not use this as an example ?

An individual car is a complex, you can't buy half of it (see previous thread !).

So, what is the effect of high mileage ?

What is the effect if bodywork ?

And whatever this is, let it be equal for all !!

Paul and Keith, you have stuck your heads above the parrapet, I in particular am entitled to an answer though I belive the whole forum will be most interested. You know my view on "the whole person" --- I am not looking for a scapegoat.

What I am looking for is a good Clubsport, --- you had a red one that is still advertised as being available with Tom Schmidt.

P.S. Why aren't the typos visible until after a post has been sent ?

 

[ChrisW]

Paul, since Julian Thompson was the previous owner of my car and he did indeed pay Autofarm to fettle it, you have clearly identified it to the Forum as being my car which is currently for sale on Pistonheads. Your recollections of the conditon of the car are noted --- and must logically be a concern to any prospective purchaser, particularly since the previous ownership is easily verified.

I appreciate however that your observations are confused, because you describe a car for which you could not possibly have offered £35k (with or without the wheels) --- and you can easily check the unpaid bank draft to Julian to jog your memory of the time and value involved. It was only the Spring of this year ....

So may I ask you again, what was the condition of the car you offered to buy from Julian ?

How can we best put this to rights ?

Chris.

 

[ChrisW]

OK, so let's assume for a moment that Paul is not intending to reply.

Paul offered £35 k (less a set of BBS mag wheels ?) for the car and would have marked it up at £40k ? at the time --- which was the going rate for a good tidy car.

The asking price for similar cars now seems to be around £46k ? ish ?

So the £43k I am asking is mid point between the dealer buying and the dealer selling price, for a nice original car --- with alitttle room for discussion !

In terms of a price adjustment for mileage, I always reckon that -£2k per 10,000 miles is about right as an allowance for higher mileage.

Maybe -£1000 per new panel and -£500 per repaired ding would be sensible --- so long as the job is well done. Mismatched paint may be worth the cost of a complete respray --- it depends upon the purchaser. (Which is actually what Julian said he had done).

But if the notion were to persist that 15 year old cars with body damage are perpetually damned --- irrespective of the quality of the repair, then who will dare use the thing ?

What do "we" think ?

Totally original LHD cars with miniscule mileage have been attributed a value beyond £60k.

Very well used and untidy cars have been attributed a value around £30+k ---- both dealer selling prices --- buying prices £5k less subject to work required.

 

[sambaman]

Chrisw...when we spoke you said a dealer had offered £41K...why dont you accept the said offer and put all this to bed regarding your car ..???or was it wishfull thinking the 41k ???..i wonder ..... []

 

[RSR]

ChrisW. Sorry for the delay in responding, but this is the first time I've had chance to look at the forums since my lats post. I've been very very busy with work. Appologies if my post read as a condemnation of your car it was not intended as such. I had a feeling it was indeed the car I looked at. You seem to have confirmed that. The reason for my post was because you implied its not been damaged but merely repainted. This is not the case. Your statement then meant that Julian held back the full truth when you bought it from him or if he told you the truth then I'm not sure why you said what you did.

First of all I'd like to say that I'm not your usual dealer. My small niche business has grown from my love of the 90's RS and GT cars and I buy cars with my own money which I like. Because I pay my daily bills from a nice lucrative professional career I have no pressure to sell cars. This allows me to tell people exactly what they are buying. For example if I buy a damaged car I tell people exactly what they are buying so they are never disappointed in the future. I'm not a salesman I'm an enthusiast who has personally stripped and rebuilt 964RS / 993RS cars and know them inside out. In addition to this my bodyshop man is the best in the business and having spent a long time with him and been fortunate enough to own mega timewarp museum pieces I have good knowledge of how they left the factory and what body repairs signs to look for, etc, etc. In fact a current project I am working on is a genuine 964 RSR factory racer with very good race provenance. It arrived last week and is already completely stripped to a total bare shell to be freshly rebuilt to concors condition.

I'm not bragging but just wanted to clarify my position. Regarding 964 RS's no I don't only buy accident free cars. This is very hard these days. Truely original paint cars even more impossible, there are not plenty around! I did travel up north to see this car in the spring time for the RS trackday at Oulton Park. I was absolutely assured over the phone that it was genuinely accident free, etc, etc, (every seller tells me this) and we agreed £35k for the car on its original mags that I was also told were fresh. £35k was a lot for me to pay for it but I thought if its accident free then I'm happy to be able to offer the best cars for sale so I went up with a draft in hand. I was disappointed to say the least. That does not mean its a bad car, for me it basically makes a price difference. The bottom line is even after all the money spent with Autofarm, full repaint etc, I could see the left front wing had been replaced, door / door skin, and rework with filler for the rear wing. Everything else was in order and it drove very well. The deal fell through because Julian basically still wanted £35k. I'd just sold a car that week with only 1 front wing replaced and no other damage for £35k with warranty, etc. The deal made no sense for me anymore. IMPORTANT! I would have still bought the car if we could have agreed a new price.

I am happy to show you around the car from my perspective to clarify my points about it. There's at least one other member of this forum that looked at the car and saw the same things as me, but he wanted an original panel car and finally found what he wanted.

 

[jason]

Paul - I'm looking forward to you taking a gander at mine when I get it back if that's ok.

Will really be interested in your opinion mate.

Not that its likely to ever be for sale though[]


completely original though...well maybe[]

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: sambaman

Chrisw...when we spoke you said a dealer had offered £41K...why dont you accept the said offer and put all this to bed regarding your car ..???or was it wishfull thinking the 41k ???..i wonder ..... []

Sambaman, absolutely true, --- if you want to put a bet on it I can put you in touch with the dealer.

Shall we say £100 ? I'll divide it 50:50 with the dealer concerned !

I also had one and now have a couple of private prospects --- the dealer was perfectly open and said he needed to make £5k --- hence the figures above.

I have put all this on hold until the provenance question is resolved --- again as above.

Incidentally, did you pay less than £45k for the one you bought ?

You wanted an "original" one, now that you have had chance to have a good look at it, did you find it ?