The answer for RMS problems?

[Guest]

I have read with interest the RMS failure debate. Does anyone know the manufacturer of the RMS seal and its type or model number etc.? If anyone has a used one laying about that could supply this information.

These seals are normally manufactured to extremely high standards and their operating envelope including eccentricity (misalignment in this case), operating temperature, differentail pressure, oil viscosity oil type etc. etc will almost certainly be closely specified. In answer ot a previous question about expected life. If the manufacturer's operating envelope is complied with then the seal should comforatbaly last the life of the car / engine. If it fails early it is either an application/specification or installation problem, nothing else fits.

Is there any known correlation of failure with track or competition use ? If there is then it may be a reason (not legitimate) for Porsche to show little interest.

 

[Mark_Bennett]

ORIGINAL: lawrencemoss

Is there any known correlation of failure with track or competition use ?

Going by posts I have seen (not just on this forum, and not just in this country!) The mode of use does not appear to have any bearing on the life of the seal.

(And please don't put that in Porsche's mind[])

 

[Guest]

lawrencemoss, the seal is not the problem. The problem is the engine block casing. It is due to a misalignment of the engine block casing which has become non concentric to the crankshaft. It is my understanding that the engine block casing is constructed of an amalgam of materials (mainly aluminium). The design allows for expansion due to thermal fluctuations in engine operating temperatures. However, the design has shown to lead to a warping of the engine block casing resulting with the opening bore of the crankshaft where the RMS fits to be non-concentric. Since the RMS is circular it cannot possibly be fitted correctly into a bore cavity that has become oval. The result is that the seal leaks by allowing oil to seep through it and into the gearbox bell housing and eventually onto the floor of one's garage. It does not matter how many seals are replaced, the result will always be the same: any replaced seal will eventually leak. If left unattended a failed RMS may lead to the collapse of the main bearing or the untimely wear of the engine due to crankshaft wobble and thus ultimately leading to catastrophic engine failure. It may also lead to clutch and/or flywheel failure due to oil contamination from the oil leaking into the gearbox bell housing. PAG have tried sevral seal types in an effort to fix this problem but so far they haven't worked.

BTW: I once new a Lawrence Moss from Liverpool.

Cheers,

 

[Guest]

Berny and Lawrence

Good debating points when we can get some interest from Porsche - stick with it please but Berny can I ask for my sake that you KIS it (keep it simple) [] as comments like "resulting with the opening bore of the crankshaft where the RMS fits to be non-concentric" do not sit well with me.

IMO we need more of this type of input[]

 

[Carl.Young]

For anyone interested in some technicalities surrounding the RMS, there's an excellent thread with pictures which show exactly what its all about here - Renntech thread

 

[Guest]

Here's a picture of a "spent" RMS.

Note in a failed RMS there is no apparent damage. The damage that you see
in the pic is caused by the removal process.

 

[Guest]

In this picture you can see the end of the crankshaft with the RMS in place.
You can also see the Intermediate Seal (IMS) in the lower part of the engine (pointed to in green).
The yellow lines show the 4 bolts that fix the two halves of the engine block casing together.
If there is even a hint of misalignment, the whole where the RMS fits will be non-concentric (or ovaled).
That is, it won't be a perfect round circle. So the RMS cannot fit within the bore correctly.
All these bits (the RMS, IMS, engine casing, crankshaft) are manufactured to extremely high tolerances
so even a few thou of an inch make a difference.

The old mechanism to fix an RMS was to undo the engine casing, realign and then put it all back to gether again.
Now they use a newer type of bolt which doesn't require this. PAG have also tried at least 3 seal types to
my knowledge but they still fail.

 

[Guest]

To fit the RMS, the engineer is "supposed" to use this tool called a mandrel (part no. 9699/1)
I say supposed to because I have found that some OPC engineers have never heard of it!

There have been 2 of these tools to my knowledge. The latest one is a bit deeper and is
designed to push the RMS deeper in the bore. Again these are precision tools.
The idea is if the tool does not fit into the bore opening with only slight resistance, the engine "must"
be replaced.....according toe the PNA TSB.

(note these pics are not mine, I plagiarised them from other boards [] )

 

[Guest]

Strikes me there is more folk lore around this subject than facts.

It si not really that difficult to stop oil leaking out. What other cars have this problem? None that I have read about.

To go back to scouser. The seal must be able to accept some eccentricity. It must be possible to machine engines such that any eccentricity is within this capability. Everyone else seems to manage it and Porsche has struggled with this problem for seven years.

Let us just remind ourselves of what it says in thE "Driver's Manual". Manufactured to the highest design and production quality standards: Porsche Standards. Bout time they lived up to this statement, me thinks.

 

[Guest]

Actually, RMS problems are fairly common on many other marques. It's just that it
seems a lot more common on the 996/986. And as you say, we pay a lot of mula for
these cars so they should stand the pace and Porsche should be "made" to live up
to their statement of quality.

You will also be interested to know that there is a Front Main Seal (FMS) too. But
one rarely hears of that leaking. This is mainly because all the force of the engine is
transferred to the transmission via the rear of the crankshaft via the clutch. So the rear
end of the engine takes a lot more strain than the front. But no matter, these cars
are supposed to be built to withstand them being driven hard constantly. The seals
should be bullet proof.

The main issue is really quite simple: we bought these expensive cars in good faith.
The RMS failure in them is down to a manufacturing defect or a bad design. There is no
other acceptable solution other than Porsche should put the problems right at no charge
to the owner regardless of in or out of warranty. Their best bet to save face and to win
back loyal customers is to do just that. Say nothing, just fix it.....even if that means
replacing the engine......and I am sure this will be a very large percentage of cases.
They have been bragging about how well their profits have been over the last few
years so it's about time they injected a heap of that profit back into its ailing customer
base. If they do this they are on a win win situation. Everyone stays happy, customers
stay loyal and upgrade to the next model and so it goes on. If they don't it's lose lose
situation.....bad press, disgruntled customers, bad name, and so it goes on.

 

[Sundeep]

now on the top gear site...!

http://www.topgear.com/content/my_topgear/write_turns/2004_06/23/

 

[Helen Goff]

wow engine blowing up thats a new one on me...

just goes to show Porsche should have jumped on this much much sooner and delt with it before it gets blown (sorry pun not intended)out of all proportion. they are now going to have to start doing some niffty footwork to regain our trust (and money) im not going to be buying a 987 untill Porsche have come up with an answer to this problem and im sure i won't be alone.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: Helen Goff

wow engine blowing up thats a new one on me...

just goes to show Porsche should have jumped on this much much sooner and delt with it before it gets blown (sorry pun not intended)out of all proportion. they are now going to have to start doing some niffty footwork to regain our trust (and money) im not going to be buying a 987 untill Porsche have come up with an answer to this problem and im sure i won't be alone.

It always seems to amaze me how some people seem to be oblivious to the fact that there are problems with the 986 and the 996 engines that can and do lead to catastrophic failures. Without high jacking the RMS issue let me make a few points

1. My own OPC admits that they have had to repalce between 25-30% of engines on 986 and 996, most within the warranty
2. What annoys most of those affected is the attitude of Porsche GB Customer Services. When faced by overwhelming evidence that the fault lies at the door of Porsche, they still refuse to admit liablity or to just settle the matter.
3. Tob Gear have been in contact with me and i am in the process of putting together the evidence collected to be published on both the
program and the mag.

Like Scoucer, all i can say is that if Porsche GB stop treating us like "stupid" people then we may be in high praise of the marque. They should take a leaf out of BMW (M3 engines) or better still Aston and accept that faults occur but rectify them promptly and with the minium of fuss.

 

[Helen Goff]

ORIGINAL: n4das

ORIGINAL: Helen Goff

wow engine blowing up thats a new one on me...

just goes to show Porsche should have jumped on this much much sooner and delt with it before it gets blown (sorry pun not intended)out of all proportion. they are now going to have to start doing some niffty footwork to regain our trust (and money) im not going to be buying a 987 untill Porsche have come up with an answer to this problem and im sure i won't be alone.

It always seems to amaze me how some people seem to be oblivious to the fact that there are problems with the 986 and the 996 engines that can and do lead to catastrophic failures. Without high jacking the RMS issue let me make a few points

1. My own OPC admits that they have had to repalce between 25-30% of engines on 986 and 996, most within the warranty
2. What annoys most of those affected is the attitude of Porsche GB Customer Services. When faced by overwhelming evidence that the fault lies at the door of Porsche, they still refuse to admit liablity or to just settle the matter.
3. Tob Gear have been in contact with me and i am in the process of putting together the evidence collected to be published on both the
program and the mag.

Like Scoucer, all i can say is that if Porsche GB stop treating us like "stupid" people then we may be in high praise of the marque. They should take a leaf out of BMW (M3 engines) or better still Aston and accept that faults occur but rectify them promptly and with the minium of fuss.

more than happy to be enlightened to this problem that i was not aware of,and which 25-30% of 996 and 986 suffer from what with the 25-30% of the same cars suffering from RMS failier it seems Porsche have been living on borrowed time for quite a while.

i shall be going along to my local OPC and asking for my deposit back..asap.

 

[GreigM]

One of the reasons for the high number of engine replacements is that the OPC is NOT allowed to open up and fix the engine...anything which is classed as "internal" to the engine must be packed up and sent back to Stuttgart and the engine replaced. A bit of a silly policy if you ask me, considering the costs to an out-of-warranty owner of an engine replacement. I certainly won't be keeping my car beyond the warranty period.

 

[JCB..]

Whilst not disputing what and OPC may or may not have told you I find a 25-30% replacement engine figure to be nothing less than incredible.

It certainly is not reflected in the PCGB Boxster community.

JCB..

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: JCB..

Whilst not disputing what and OPC may or may not have told you I find a 25-30% replacement engine figure to be nothing less than incredible.

It certainly is not reflected in the PCGB Boxster community.

JCB..

Guys I really dont want the main purpose of the is thread, that of the RMS issue, to be clouded by engine failures. Please look at the following link

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=62999&mpage=1&key=engine%2Cfailures&#66817

This is on the 996 forum. I would be glad to answer all questions realted to the issue of engine failures there. I have a great deal of factual information on this matter including percentages and costs.

Sorry if this sounds rude but i dont want to take the wind out of the RMS issues that have been raised by others nor to take away their hard work on this thread.

 

[NicD]

My own OPC admits that they have had to repalce between 25-30% of engines on 986 and 996, most within the warranty

Dr Nadarajah

Yes there a small number of major failures, this is well reported BUT NOT this percentage. What OPC person told you this?

This would mean many of us as Boxster and 996 owners would have had replacement engines without being told. Highly unlikely!

Do you expect a writ from Posrche cars? I am wondering if we as the Club should expect one in relation to your post. Dont be surprised if we have to moderate it off the Forum.

By the way you dont seem to be a Club member? This Forum is for the benefit of members

 

[Helen Goff]

seems to me these matters are related in as much as we are seeking the same answers from the same people i think we would do alot better to unite in this matter.

 

[NicD]

Helen,

In the (mainly) RMS presentation I made to Porsche Cars GB (which I believe they have or will send to Porsche AG) I mentioned the issue of a small number of catastrophic engine failures. I stated that where caused by design or manufacturing defects, owners of cars suffering from this should be treated fairly at whatever age of car they occur.

Our case will not be helped by wild accusations, quite the reverse.