The answer for RMS problems?
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Guest
New member
Nic
Thanks for the update and fingers crossed that your assumption is indeed correct.
Many of us are anxious to see the results of the survey and we understood why you kept them back prior to the meeting. Now that Porsche have seen them I cannot see any tactical reason for not publishing them to the members now - unless I have missed something?
Also, was the meeting minuted and where will those minutes be viewable at please?
keep well
Thanks for the update and fingers crossed that your assumption is indeed correct.
Many of us are anxious to see the results of the survey and we understood why you kept them back prior to the meeting. Now that Porsche have seen them I cannot see any tactical reason for not publishing them to the members now - unless I have missed something?
Also, was the meeting minuted and where will those minutes be viewable at please?
keep well
Nigel,
this is an emotive subject and the poll result will be published together with the reply from Porsche Cars.
I took some brief notes only at the meeting since I was making the presentation. I will mention these when we get the reply.
I am not giving anything away to say that my impression was, Porsche Cars GB is not likely be trail blazing on this issue.
this is an emotive subject and the poll result will be published together with the reply from Porsche Cars.
I took some brief notes only at the meeting since I was making the presentation. I will mention these when we get the reply.
I am not giving anything away to say that my impression was, Porsche Cars GB is not likely be trail blazing on this issue.
Helen Goff
No.1 Poster
i second that. my thanks go to the Boxster register team for having the courage to take this on..well done.
Guest
New member
Folks, some new info just in regarding RMS and replacing engine block bolts. There is a new RMS TSB just recently published. watch this space.
More info from my post at renntech...
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2346
In the meantime, please show some support. Display the RMS Club avatar. The more people that do this
across the forums and across the globe, the more chance that PAG will hear our cries of disatisfaction.
Link to the image here: http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/rmsclub145x99.jpg
Also see my post on the 996 Register re: RMS........What to do about it
Cheers,
More info from my post at renntech...
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2346
In the meantime, please show some support. Display the RMS Club avatar. The more people that do this
across the forums and across the globe, the more chance that PAG will hear our cries of disatisfaction.
Link to the image here: http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/rmsclub145x99.jpg
Also see my post on the 996 Register re: RMS........What to do about it
Cheers,
Guest
New member
Nic
Thank you for the response although it was not what I wanted to see. Not knowing all the facts of the situation leaves me at a disadvantage - total openess within our Club for the benefit of all members is my belief as to how the Club should be run.
With an absence of anyone else joining the debate and you holding all the cards - I have to accept your 'decision' at this juncture. Hopefully the awaited response will not be too long in coming.
keep well
Thank you for the response although it was not what I wanted to see. Not knowing all the facts of the situation leaves me at a disadvantage - total openess within our Club for the benefit of all members is my belief as to how the Club should be run.
With an absence of anyone else joining the debate and you holding all the cards - I have to accept your 'decision' at this juncture. Hopefully the awaited response will not be too long in coming.
keep well
Helen Goff
No.1 Poster
i've saved that image for future use (if need be) but am awaiting the response from Porsche before i go any further. having now had two RMS replacements, if it has to be done again and Porsche won't cough up for it then i shall not only be joining you but starting my own UK based action group. with legal action too.
Nigel,
if any consolation, my initial reaction was "to publish and be damned" but cooler heads prevailed and the path we are taking is best for the members, the Club and Porsche Cars.
but we should not be under any illusions about how big (or small) a part we play in the over all scheme of Porsche, at least, at the moment
if any consolation, my initial reaction was "to publish and be damned" but cooler heads prevailed and the path we are taking is best for the members, the Club and Porsche Cars.
but we should not be under any illusions about how big (or small) a part we play in the over all scheme of Porsche, at least, at the moment
Helen Goff
No.1 Poster
agree an awaiting Porsches answer with interest.
dawn lang
Ex Club Member
I'm feeling quite perturbed reading this thread I have to say.
I have just sold my 2000 2.7 boxster and it's being collected on Friday. I have to say I have had mixed emotions about selling it as it's my baby and i've never owned a car that has given me so much pure driving pleasure. However, the regret of selling the car has been mixed with the relief of knowing that if the RMS goes again (for the third time) it wont be my problem.
I know that's harsh but I had to persue all the way to get the RMS done the first time (as the car was JUST out of warranty - three years and one month). Lots of cajoling phonecalls were needed. 10 months later it went again. My local OPC told me that there was no way it could go so quickly and I ended up underneath the car taking digital pictures of the RMS to e-mail to them. To give OPC Colchester their due they took the car in and re-did the RMS again last month but i've been consistantly worried about it failing again.
The reason for selling my car was mainly to 'upgrade' (if that's the correct terminology) to a Boxster S. I fancy a 52/03 age S but this decision is now tinged with the RMS debate still raging. I even (stupidly) phoned my local OPC to find out exactly what their position was if I buy a car privately and the RMS goes. After all, Porsche GB have already paid out for one car in my name - what guarantees do I have that they would be so gracious if there is a next time?
The answer - quite frankly - was grim listening! If the car is within warranty and has a fully OPC service history then the work will be carried out. If the RMS goes out of warranty then they will 'consider' whether a goodwill claim can be made. CONSIDER!???
Personally I wouldn't buy a car without a full OPC history (that's just me) and I have been loyal to my local OPC having servicing done there and attending Porsche Clinics and up until now have considered myself lucky to have such a fab relationship with my local Porsche dealership but I will confess a great deal of nervousness at the idea of paying out £35k for a car which could end up costing me a great deal of money in RMS's - not to mention all the hassle.
I wouldn't buy a car from an OPC because - to be honest - I feel that the prices are vastly inflated to those in the 'real world' and I want to as much car as I can for my money but I am more than happy to pay OPC rates for servicing to keep the car in tip top condition and the residuals high (obviously the 10% PCGB discount helps too). Surely, wherever I initially buy the car from shouldn't matter as long as its a UK car and has full OPC Service History. If these factors are in place and i've done my usual speaking to every dealership in the service book trick then Porsche should work on the RMS regardless of whether I bought it from them or not.
The other factor i'd like to add is that prior to buying a boxster I would take it to my OPC to have it checked over so surely that's another failsafe in place?
Sorry, i'm waffling - bottom line is I don't want any other car - I want a boxster but i've worked bloody hard for the money being used to buy another one and i'm bricking it that i'll spend out all that money just to end up with another RMS nightmare!
[
]
I have just sold my 2000 2.7 boxster and it's being collected on Friday. I have to say I have had mixed emotions about selling it as it's my baby and i've never owned a car that has given me so much pure driving pleasure. However, the regret of selling the car has been mixed with the relief of knowing that if the RMS goes again (for the third time) it wont be my problem.
I know that's harsh but I had to persue all the way to get the RMS done the first time (as the car was JUST out of warranty - three years and one month). Lots of cajoling phonecalls were needed. 10 months later it went again. My local OPC told me that there was no way it could go so quickly and I ended up underneath the car taking digital pictures of the RMS to e-mail to them. To give OPC Colchester their due they took the car in and re-did the RMS again last month but i've been consistantly worried about it failing again.
The reason for selling my car was mainly to 'upgrade' (if that's the correct terminology) to a Boxster S. I fancy a 52/03 age S but this decision is now tinged with the RMS debate still raging. I even (stupidly) phoned my local OPC to find out exactly what their position was if I buy a car privately and the RMS goes. After all, Porsche GB have already paid out for one car in my name - what guarantees do I have that they would be so gracious if there is a next time?
The answer - quite frankly - was grim listening! If the car is within warranty and has a fully OPC service history then the work will be carried out. If the RMS goes out of warranty then they will 'consider' whether a goodwill claim can be made. CONSIDER!???
Personally I wouldn't buy a car without a full OPC history (that's just me) and I have been loyal to my local OPC having servicing done there and attending Porsche Clinics and up until now have considered myself lucky to have such a fab relationship with my local Porsche dealership but I will confess a great deal of nervousness at the idea of paying out £35k for a car which could end up costing me a great deal of money in RMS's - not to mention all the hassle.
I wouldn't buy a car from an OPC because - to be honest - I feel that the prices are vastly inflated to those in the 'real world' and I want to as much car as I can for my money but I am more than happy to pay OPC rates for servicing to keep the car in tip top condition and the residuals high (obviously the 10% PCGB discount helps too). Surely, wherever I initially buy the car from shouldn't matter as long as its a UK car and has full OPC Service History. If these factors are in place and i've done my usual speaking to every dealership in the service book trick then Porsche should work on the RMS regardless of whether I bought it from them or not.
The other factor i'd like to add is that prior to buying a boxster I would take it to my OPC to have it checked over so surely that's another failsafe in place?
Sorry, i'm waffling - bottom line is I don't want any other car - I want a boxster but i've worked bloody hard for the money being used to buy another one and i'm bricking it that i'll spend out all that money just to end up with another RMS nightmare!
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Guest
New member
Dawn, you are not alone. I have had several emails from people sitting on the side waiting to see what Porsche UK are going to do about this dreaded RMS problem.
There are several issues:
1) Porsche are supposed to be the best in cutting edge German technology. A Porsche costs a small fortune to buy but you get what you pay for. Having said that, one would expect that the engine would outlast any other part of the car. It seems
it is the first bit to go wrong.
2) It's now a known fact that the RMS failure in these engines is a design flaw; a manufacturing fault. But the issue is they won't admit to it probably because there would be a massive class action against them across the pond. But since it's a design flaw it should be repaired free with no questions asked.
3) The US and Canada get 4 years warranty. We only get 2. This is totally unfair. I am not sure what the European Trade Associations would make of this or for that matter what a court in this country would make of it. But my guess is that if they are ever brought before a court in regards to faulty workmanship then this would be brought up.
4) The US and Canada seem a lot more sympathetic towards their customers in regards to this RMS problem (in fact any problems). If you frequent rennlist and/or renntech as I do you will see that more often than not a repeat RMS failure ends up with a replacement engine and no questions are asked. This is far from what we get here.
5) An unchecked failed RMS can and probably will eventually lead to catastrophic engine failure. At the best it will lead to clutch contamination. The cost of a replacement 996 engine would buy you a nice condition used 964! But then the RMS
in that engine may fail too.
6) Since PAG won't admit to the RMS being a manufacturing fault there is no way they can make reference to it being fixed in the 997. So we can only assume the problem persists in the 997. In fact there is a very good chance this is the case.
6) Customers like you and I and many others are getting well pi$$ed off with the situation. I for one will never buy another late model Porsche again. But they showed incredible profits last year and it is very unikely they will inject some of that
profit back out to the customer base.
7) These cars (especially the 996) are currently suffering immense depreciation. The RMS problem will eventually be out in the open and this will have an even bigger effect on the value of our used cars. This together with the release of the 997 and we may be trading in on a Ford. Seriously, I have a friend who just recently bought a 1998 996 C2 with 30,000 on the clock for £24,000! If the RMS issue gets out to the media and it becomes a laughing stock this car could be selling for £15,000 in the next 12 months. Be aware that the RMS exists in 2004 model cars too!
The next move is pressure to make PAG do something about it. What do we want? Well I don't know about you but I would settle for no less than a written guarantee that the RMS will be serviced/repaired under warranty for the life of my car or 150,000 miles. If that means a new engine then so be it. But not at my cost.
My suggestions to you is to hold off buying your Boxster S for a while. The prices might come down enough that you could buy two for one
There are several issues:
1) Porsche are supposed to be the best in cutting edge German technology. A Porsche costs a small fortune to buy but you get what you pay for. Having said that, one would expect that the engine would outlast any other part of the car. It seems
it is the first bit to go wrong.
2) It's now a known fact that the RMS failure in these engines is a design flaw; a manufacturing fault. But the issue is they won't admit to it probably because there would be a massive class action against them across the pond. But since it's a design flaw it should be repaired free with no questions asked.
3) The US and Canada get 4 years warranty. We only get 2. This is totally unfair. I am not sure what the European Trade Associations would make of this or for that matter what a court in this country would make of it. But my guess is that if they are ever brought before a court in regards to faulty workmanship then this would be brought up.
4) The US and Canada seem a lot more sympathetic towards their customers in regards to this RMS problem (in fact any problems). If you frequent rennlist and/or renntech as I do you will see that more often than not a repeat RMS failure ends up with a replacement engine and no questions are asked. This is far from what we get here.
5) An unchecked failed RMS can and probably will eventually lead to catastrophic engine failure. At the best it will lead to clutch contamination. The cost of a replacement 996 engine would buy you a nice condition used 964! But then the RMS
in that engine may fail too.
6) Since PAG won't admit to the RMS being a manufacturing fault there is no way they can make reference to it being fixed in the 997. So we can only assume the problem persists in the 997. In fact there is a very good chance this is the case.
6) Customers like you and I and many others are getting well pi$$ed off with the situation. I for one will never buy another late model Porsche again. But they showed incredible profits last year and it is very unikely they will inject some of that
profit back out to the customer base.
7) These cars (especially the 996) are currently suffering immense depreciation. The RMS problem will eventually be out in the open and this will have an even bigger effect on the value of our used cars. This together with the release of the 997 and we may be trading in on a Ford. Seriously, I have a friend who just recently bought a 1998 996 C2 with 30,000 on the clock for £24,000! If the RMS issue gets out to the media and it becomes a laughing stock this car could be selling for £15,000 in the next 12 months. Be aware that the RMS exists in 2004 model cars too!
The next move is pressure to make PAG do something about it. What do we want? Well I don't know about you but I would settle for no less than a written guarantee that the RMS will be serviced/repaired under warranty for the life of my car or 150,000 miles. If that means a new engine then so be it. But not at my cost.
My suggestions to you is to hold off buying your Boxster S for a while. The prices might come down enough that you could buy two for one
kenwardc
New member
Hi
All this stuff about the RMS issue seriously damages the image, the potential residuals of our vehicles and sales of new Boxsters in the future. I am a brand new Porsche owner and a brand new PCGB member and already have an opinion on this issue for what it's worth:
With more than 16000 members, the PCGB surely must be a voice to be reckoned with, both with PAG and the media in this country. Surely instead of us all standing about looking at the ground there is something we could be doing to force PAG into making some sort of statement of intent, at the very least?
Sorry - I don't understand this - here we all are (I wonder how many Boxster owners there are in the UK) simply waiting for PAG to say something about an issue that dramatically affects us all. Why is it that someone hasn't ALREADY been to the press, the car magazines, the Top Gears of this world, in both the UK AND in Germany and the USA? Howcome we're not working together to get this issue resolved? Are we worried about our car values dropping because we've "blown the whistle"? I suggest that if we DON'T blow the whistle on this one, we will all suffer in the end anyway.
I don't know about you guys, but I would HATE to have something go seriously wrong with my 550 and find that PAG give me the bird when I go talk to them....
<gets off soapbox>
Regards
Chris
All this stuff about the RMS issue seriously damages the image, the potential residuals of our vehicles and sales of new Boxsters in the future. I am a brand new Porsche owner and a brand new PCGB member and already have an opinion on this issue for what it's worth:
With more than 16000 members, the PCGB surely must be a voice to be reckoned with, both with PAG and the media in this country. Surely instead of us all standing about looking at the ground there is something we could be doing to force PAG into making some sort of statement of intent, at the very least?
Sorry - I don't understand this - here we all are (I wonder how many Boxster owners there are in the UK) simply waiting for PAG to say something about an issue that dramatically affects us all. Why is it that someone hasn't ALREADY been to the press, the car magazines, the Top Gears of this world, in both the UK AND in Germany and the USA? Howcome we're not working together to get this issue resolved? Are we worried about our car values dropping because we've "blown the whistle"? I suggest that if we DON'T blow the whistle on this one, we will all suffer in the end anyway.
I don't know about you guys, but I would HATE to have something go seriously wrong with my 550 and find that PAG give me the bird when I go talk to them....
<gets off soapbox>
Regards
Chris
Helen Goff
No.1 Poster
beleive me when i say if the RMS goes again on my car and Porsche won't cover the costs then i shall be that whistle blower.As i have already said i will start a campaign, untill Porsche at least give us brits the same service and respect they give to the American and Canadian customers.
kenwardc
New member
Hi Helen
It appears to me that this is a bigger issue than my RMS, your RMS or someone elses. This is something that we know is going to affect a large percentage of us, if not all of us, at some time in the future. I think we should form some sort of action group comprising reps of all the Porsche clubs, official and otherwise, in Europe AND the USA.
Out of interest, has anyone had contact with any of the USA clubs to see what they are doing about the issue?
Regards
Chris
It appears to me that this is a bigger issue than my RMS, your RMS or someone elses. This is something that we know is going to affect a large percentage of us, if not all of us, at some time in the future. I think we should form some sort of action group comprising reps of all the Porsche clubs, official and otherwise, in Europe AND the USA.
Out of interest, has anyone had contact with any of the USA clubs to see what they are doing about the issue?
Regards
Chris
Helen Goff
No.1 Poster
Chris agree totally but i've said i will wait untill Porsche come back with a reply to our survay.
yes take a look at rennlist forum among other and i think we can safely say we will be able to join forces pretty much world wide on this issue.
yes take a look at rennlist forum among other and i think we can safely say we will be able to join forces pretty much world wide on this issue.
dawn lang
Ex Club Member
I'm willing to wait too.
But that wait will unfortunately mean that i'm waiting to buy my new S too. Oh well!
The ironic thing for me being that we have a 1985 944 which i'm using at the moment and it's got 139,000 miles on it but is totally trouble free - practically bullet proof.
I truly hoped my boxster would be like that too. Now i'm sounding whiney so i'll shut up!
[>:]
But that wait will unfortunately mean that i'm waiting to buy my new S too. Oh well!
The ironic thing for me being that we have a 1985 944 which i'm using at the moment and it's got 139,000 miles on it but is totally trouble free - practically bullet proof.
I truly hoped my boxster would be like that too. Now i'm sounding whiney so i'll shut up!
[>:]
Black80XSA
New member
Chris, the survey may not capture all Boxster members here, never mind the UK, and it doesn't include the 996 brigade. However, when the results of the survey are known we will at least see whether it is 1 in 100 cars or 1 in 5. This will provide another line of attack, more so if the percentage is higher.
The only problem is that people are more inclined to reply to the survey if they have been affected. Like everyting the bad ones are always reported. There might (but I very much doubt it) be 5000 happy RMS free owners in the UK for all we know at present.
RMS failures have also be reported in Honest John's column in the Saturday Telegraph at least three times since Xmas, mainly because people are disgruntled with lack of support from OPCs/Porsche (hey, no surprise there then). However, and I'm certainly not taking the manufacturers side here, all these published cases were people with six year old cars, to which John replied 'its way out of warranty, at some point you have to call it a day'.
Look at the buying guides in GTPP or 911+PW and they all mention the RMS as the weak spot, ditto independent inspectors.
We need to get some support on this agreed, but blowing the whistle on it across the press will only harm residuals and ultimately cost us more than the current position.
The only problem is that people are more inclined to reply to the survey if they have been affected. Like everyting the bad ones are always reported. There might (but I very much doubt it) be 5000 happy RMS free owners in the UK for all we know at present.
RMS failures have also be reported in Honest John's column in the Saturday Telegraph at least three times since Xmas, mainly because people are disgruntled with lack of support from OPCs/Porsche (hey, no surprise there then). However, and I'm certainly not taking the manufacturers side here, all these published cases were people with six year old cars, to which John replied 'its way out of warranty, at some point you have to call it a day'.
Look at the buying guides in GTPP or 911+PW and they all mention the RMS as the weak spot, ditto independent inspectors.
We need to get some support on this agreed, but blowing the whistle on it across the press will only harm residuals and ultimately cost us more than the current position.
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