I sat in a Pan 4S yesterday at the Ace cafe. Stunning interior, loads of legroom, very very nice, just that exterior hmmm
Turbo GenII Driving Event at Silverstone
- Thread starter Alex L
- Start date
Thanks Gary and Bob. Great to get more varied opinions on the Silverstone day. Just shows how each of us notice different little things.
I agree the is a significant jump between the 997.1 Tip/Manual and the 997.2 PDK.
However I have started looking at it like this - would you pay £50k (same as trade in cost for a 3 year old Turbo) to take your existing car to Porsche and them add on the PDK gearbox for you? ie. is that modification (plus other small ones like tighter handling and new PCM) really worth £50,000? You could buy a very nice additional car for that!
I think if you weren't trading in a 997.1 Turbo then a 997.2 Turbo would be a great car to get, but otherwise that's an awful lot of money for some flappy paddles and launch control in my book.
ORIGINAL: garyw
I thought the new Turbo was a move on, the manual I got to drive left me with nothing, apparently it had the new stability device fitted- which obviously means I wasn't going quick enough to notice it [], thicker wheel was nice, ride as expected - just put it in 3rd and the torque took you round easily.. would I upgrade on that drive? No not at all...
Would I upgrade a new Turbo with PDK.. Certainly Yes [
I agree the is a significant jump between the 997.1 Tip/Manual and the 997.2 PDK.
However I have started looking at it like this - would you pay £50k (same as trade in cost for a 3 year old Turbo) to take your existing car to Porsche and them add on the PDK gearbox for you? ie. is that modification (plus other small ones like tighter handling and new PCM) really worth £50,000? You could buy a very nice additional car for that!
I think if you weren't trading in a 997.1 Turbo then a 997.2 Turbo would be a great car to get, but otherwise that's an awful lot of money for some flappy paddles and launch control in my book.
[]
A bit disingenuous to say that you are just getting flappy paddles and launch for £50K! You're getting a car that's 3 years younger with no miles on it for starters. But then again it's like most things (but more expensive) - when do you upgrade your computer/tv/hi-fi etc.etc? What advances/improvements have to be made and to what degree before, for you, it's worth the change? For me it's easy because it's a different car altogether to the previous. But if you're a Gen1 turbo owner I've no idea what the differences need to be to make it justifiable!
]A bit disingenuous to say that you are just getting flappy paddles and launch for £50K! You're getting a car that's 3 years younger with no miles on it for starters. But then again it's like most things (but more expensive) - when do you upgrade your computer/tv/hi-fi etc.etc? What advances/improvements have to be made and to what degree before, for you, it's worth the change? For me it's easy because it's a different car altogether to the previous. But if you're a Gen1 turbo owner I've no idea what the differences need to be to make it justifiable!
ORIGINAL: tscaptain
[
A bit disingenuous to say that you are just getting flappy paddles and launch for £50K! You're getting a car that's 3 years younger with no miles on it for starters. But then again it's like most things (but more expensive) - when do you upgrade your computer/tv/hi-fi etc.etc? What advances/improvements have to be made and to what degree before, for you, it's worth the change? For me it's easy because it's a different car altogether to the previous. But if you're a Gen1 turbo owner I've no idea what the differences need to be to make it justifiable!
I agree Alan that if you don't already have a Turbo then the pluses are much greater. However, with regards to the new car being 'newer', when you are driving along you really don't notice whether a Porsche is 1 year or 5 years old. They drive the same, they just depreciate at a different rate (newer = faster). You are not going to be down at the dealership every 10 mins getting expensive repairs with an older 997.1 Turbo (Rob's Carrera is a different matter!), the M64 engined Turbos are normally good for several 100,000 miles.
My Turbo is over 2 years old now, and other than a couple of paint chips is like new, with literally zero things gone wrong with it since it came out of the factory. So upgrading would not involve anything extra brought to the party by having a 'new' car. It's only the technology that is the differentiator. And I am saying that 90% of the significant tech is PDK/lauch-control and only 10% is PCM and handling improvements - from a driving benefits perspective anyway. So the majority of the £50k trade in would be for just PDK...
All the latest info suggests the 997.2 Turbo S is 520 or 530PS, with some upgraded internal components to handle the extra power (ie. it will be a different engine to that in the Turbo). Others have dismissed this rumour though as too costly an exercise for Porsche to have different engines. It will also will come with PDK and Ceramic brakes as standard, but the price increase will more than cover this.
The 991 Turbo will be a totally new prospect to consider when more details are known [
] I would expect a much lighter car (as per Lambo's new direction) and better fuel economy though and not huge jump in power.
Rumors on new GT2 way more power than the rumored Turbo S 530ps, same engine as the current 997.2TT probably manual only.
As per the others TT day was excellent - Drove 4 different Turbos and configurations.
Liked the PDK cars very much - it suits the cars characteristics and seemed to have virtually no lag. Unlike Garry my consultant got me to try changing gears with the PDK, albeit with the rocker switches. Very useful as without any power interruption changing gear into/during a corner was a piece of cake - we tried it just to see of we could unsettle the car.
I found I was much quicker around the circuit with the pdk - the manual I ended up sticking in 3rd and using the torque as otherwise your always changing gear rather than progressing. PDK 2nd to 4th easy []
As a 2wd person - the 4wd system was a bit of a revelation it grips like anything and I had to make some adjustments to cornering speeds - pace at which my car would be drifting a bit, the TT just went about tis business without even a hint of a problem.
Ceramics were nice, just a light dab every so often to keep things in line, more or less what I do with the current uprated brakes on mine. Steel brakes were great but less immediate delicate control
As a non Turbo driver the launch control standing start is hilarious - its just so fast and with PDK seamless, no interruption with acceleration at all.
They have also upped the quality of the interior and presumably other parts oft he car as well, not hat when you are driving you notice it too much.
As a non Turbo driver the new 997.2 TT states its case as super car of choice quite strongly. Its a noticeable step up from the current car but true to form for Porsche its an evolution not revolution.
If I had a Gen 1 TT would I feel the need to change - Nope, a quick trip to revo and a couple of grands worth of tweaks and TLC would have the car feeling like new again and also adding some more grunt to keep it interesting. But if I was the sort of person that changed car every three years, I'd notice and enjoy the improvement.
Final view - If I was to buy the 997.2 TT then the PDK is a must to get the best out of the package, as are the relevant performance mods (Chrono+ with the dynamic engine mounts and PTV). If money permitted I'd tick the ceramic brakes but I would be tempted to spend the cash on other options. Most of the consultants thought the standard steel brakes were more than up to it, even under heavy use. Besides you can have a set of 380mm steel brakes fitted (OEM, for the GT3) for about £2k, saving £5.5k on the cost of ceramics.
Many thanks to Porsche for a great day out. Nice to see everyone else there too.
As per the others TT day was excellent - Drove 4 different Turbos and configurations.
Liked the PDK cars very much - it suits the cars characteristics and seemed to have virtually no lag. Unlike Garry my consultant got me to try changing gears with the PDK, albeit with the rocker switches. Very useful as without any power interruption changing gear into/during a corner was a piece of cake - we tried it just to see of we could unsettle the car.
I found I was much quicker around the circuit with the pdk - the manual I ended up sticking in 3rd and using the torque as otherwise your always changing gear rather than progressing. PDK 2nd to 4th easy [
]As a 2wd person - the 4wd system was a bit of a revelation it grips like anything and I had to make some adjustments to cornering speeds - pace at which my car would be drifting a bit, the TT just went about tis business without even a hint of a problem.
Ceramics were nice, just a light dab every so often to keep things in line, more or less what I do with the current uprated brakes on mine. Steel brakes were great but less immediate delicate control
As a non Turbo driver the launch control standing start is hilarious - its just so fast and with PDK seamless, no interruption with acceleration at all.
They have also upped the quality of the interior and presumably other parts oft he car as well, not hat when you are driving you notice it too much.
As a non Turbo driver the new 997.2 TT states its case as super car of choice quite strongly. Its a noticeable step up from the current car but true to form for Porsche its an evolution not revolution.
If I had a Gen 1 TT would I feel the need to change - Nope, a quick trip to revo and a couple of grands worth of tweaks and TLC would have the car feeling like new again and also adding some more grunt to keep it interesting. But if I was the sort of person that changed car every three years, I'd notice and enjoy the improvement.
Final view - If I was to buy the 997.2 TT then the PDK is a must to get the best out of the package, as are the relevant performance mods (Chrono+ with the dynamic engine mounts and PTV). If money permitted I'd tick the ceramic brakes but I would be tempted to spend the cash on other options. Most of the consultants thought the standard steel brakes were more than up to it, even under heavy use. Besides you can have a set of 380mm steel brakes fitted (OEM, for the GT3) for about £2k, saving £5.5k on the cost of ceramics.
Many thanks to Porsche for a great day out. Nice to see everyone else there too.
Nice write up Tom et al. Also nice to see so many PDK converts!! After a year with the system I can only say it gets better the more familiar you become with it's little ways! I think the point that comes out time and again is the way the turbo engine and PDK box suit each other.
Agree also, Tom, with what you say about the brakes, Ceramics - lovely to have but at 1/3 of the total option cost....hmmm and, like you, my instructor at Silverstone said not to bother. Hey ho, like all these things it would be boring if we all went for the same stuff!
Agree also, Tom, with what you say about the brakes, Ceramics - lovely to have but at 1/3 of the total option cost....hmmm and, like you, my instructor at Silverstone said not to bother. Hey ho, like all these things it would be boring if we all went for the same stuff!
garyw
Moderator
On my day, I only got to drive three different combinations unlike Toms 4 selections...
I didn't like the bucket seats that much [&:] ..Age related and I enjoy the comfort probably of the adaptive seats..[]
The PDK totally transformed the car for me, the Manual just felt the same as what I have.. am I upgrading at this time... No as I somewhat agree with Alex's comments on VFM on what I already have...
I so much enjoy the Gen1 already.. and to be fair there's a lot of stuff on the market that would appreciate my business at the moment - and that for me is my major concern.
garyw
I didn't like the bucket seats that much [&:] ..Age related and I enjoy the comfort probably of the adaptive seats..[
]The PDK totally transformed the car for me, the Manual just felt the same as what I have.. am I upgrading at this time... No as I somewhat agree with Alex's comments on VFM on what I already have...
I so much enjoy the Gen1 already.. and to be fair there's a lot of stuff on the market that would appreciate my business at the moment - and that for me is my major concern.
garyw
As per Alex and Gary's point. If I had a Gen 1 TT I'd only be swapping it in for a Gen 2 if I had so much money it didn't matter or I had had my moneys worth and racked up a good 50 - 60 thousand miles worth of use and really rather wanted to have picked some options I didn't on the previous model. otherwise I'd be waiting for the 998.
Great day out, guys.
It's always a pleasure to meet up with old friends, drive some of the best cars in the land and "chew the cud" about all things motoring. []
I also enjoyed the 450 mile round trip [] (the scarlet devil's not been out for a while) even if it did get a gravel peppering from various salt spreaders on the way home [&:]. Oh well, out with the touch-up paint tomorrow then! []
Gen 2 Turbo? A good car. Nicely built, well developed and technologically advanced. New owners will be a very lucky people indeed. []
The 7 speed PDK with paddle shift is undoubtedly the greatest advance and well worth the extra if you have the budget - I didn't get to try one 'cos they said it wasn't available[], but even on the buttons - its the business! Strangely, I was quite happy to be back with a manual shift on the track and prodigious engine torque does help in this respect.
Sorry to be contrary guys, but I just don't get the TT on steel brakes! Sold my Gen 1 TT because I hated the brakes, then they bring out this latest kit with yet more grunt and no better in the braking dept. IMHO. Sure they'll work after a fashion, but are they up to the standard of the very latest purposeful, high performance sportscars? - I don't think so. []
First of all, I could push the pedal right down, nearly to floor, which didn't inspire much confidence. The pedal has a rather mushy feel, lacks preciseness and feed- back from the road. No. go for ceramics, dear boy, would be my advice. Pound for pound it's the best option you can have for fast, safe driving. [8|]
Still it's all a matter of personal preference (and pocket) I guess. [8D]
Regards,
Clive
It's always a pleasure to meet up with old friends, drive some of the best cars in the land and "chew the cud" about all things motoring. [
]I also enjoyed the 450 mile round trip [
] (the scarlet devil's not been out for a while) even if it did get a gravel peppering from various salt spreaders on the way home [&:]. Oh well, out with the touch-up paint tomorrow then! []Gen 2 Turbo? A good car. Nicely built, well developed and technologically advanced. New owners will be a very lucky people indeed. [
] The 7 speed PDK with paddle shift is undoubtedly the greatest advance and well worth the extra if you have the budget - I didn't get to try one 'cos they said it wasn't available[
], but even on the buttons - its the business! Strangely, I was quite happy to be back with a manual shift on the track and prodigious engine torque does help in this respect.Sorry to be contrary guys, but I just don't get the TT on steel brakes! Sold my Gen 1 TT because I hated the brakes, then they bring out this latest kit with yet more grunt and no better in the braking dept. IMHO. Sure they'll work after a fashion, but are they up to the standard of the very latest purposeful, high performance sportscars? - I don't think so. [
]First of all, I could push the pedal right down, nearly to floor, which didn't inspire much confidence. The pedal has a rather mushy feel, lacks preciseness and feed- back from the road. No. go for ceramics, dear boy, would be my advice. Pound for pound it's the best option you can have for fast, safe driving. [8|]
Still it's all a matter of personal preference (and pocket) I guess. [8D]
Regards,
Clive
Clive
I think indicated I was leaning in your direction in my write up. What I can't get my head over is the cost of the Ceramics, now nearly £8k - whereas I can get OEM after market 380mm eight pot (not six) Brembo's designed for Porsche's for approx £2.25k, including pagid yellows - which as I have discovered on my current car give fantastic feel and adjustability.
Next time were out together give my beast a run and tell me what you think of the steel brakes. I find mine more consistent and less grabby than the ceramics let alone the steel ones.
Having said that I agree with you that the standard brakes on the TT were difficult to modulate easily - I found it much harder work to finesse them than on mine. So I preferred them yes but I could put the Brembo OEM 380's on and pocket over £5k.....................................
But to offer an olive branch, help me find an obscenely well paid job and I'll order the ceramics without hesitation. []
I think indicated I was leaning in your direction in my write up. What I can't get my head over is the cost of the Ceramics, now nearly £8k - whereas I can get OEM after market 380mm eight pot (not six) Brembo's designed for Porsche's for approx £2.25k, including pagid yellows - which as I have discovered on my current car give fantastic feel and adjustability.
Next time were out together give my beast a run and tell me what you think of the steel brakes. I find mine more consistent and less grabby than the ceramics let alone the steel ones.
Having said that I agree with you that the standard brakes on the TT were difficult to modulate easily - I found it much harder work to finesse them than on mine. So I preferred them yes but I could put the Brembo OEM 380's on and pocket over £5k.....................................
But to offer an olive branch, help me find an obscenely well paid job and I'll order the ceramics without hesitation. [
]
Clive
I'm with you on the ceramics. In principle they are a better lighter system and as a proportion of the total cost at 5-6% seem worth the extra.
Unlike you guys I haven't had a chance to drive the car. I'm not that fond of the set up at Silverstone and in the end just never got round to booking. Car leaves factory early Feb due for hand over on March 1st so not too long to wait.
Reviews seem pretty positive, with PDK/paddles particularly well liked, though why the press insist on comparing it with the Nissan is beyond me.
It is an interesting debate about whether it is worth trading up from a Gen 1. (especially as in my case I had taken out a 2 year extended warranty) But technology does move on and knowing Porsche I expect the new car to be a not dissimilar step forward as had been the case from 996TT to 997TT. I may be wrong on this but there seemed to be sufficient new toys to make it worth finding out. And of course the only way that immaculate low mileage one owner cars come on the market is if someone is prepared to take the initial hit on depreciation!
Cheers
Nick
I'm with you on the ceramics. In principle they are a better lighter system and as a proportion of the total cost at 5-6% seem worth the extra.
Unlike you guys I haven't had a chance to drive the car. I'm not that fond of the set up at Silverstone and in the end just never got round to booking. Car leaves factory early Feb due for hand over on March 1st so not too long to wait.
Reviews seem pretty positive, with PDK/paddles particularly well liked, though why the press insist on comparing it with the Nissan is beyond me.
It is an interesting debate about whether it is worth trading up from a Gen 1. (especially as in my case I had taken out a 2 year extended warranty) But technology does move on and knowing Porsche I expect the new car to be a not dissimilar step forward as had been the case from 996TT to 997TT. I may be wrong on this but there seemed to be sufficient new toys to make it worth finding out. And of course the only way that immaculate low mileage one owner cars come on the market is if someone is prepared to take the initial hit on depreciation!
Cheers
Nick
This guy now owns both, and gives a good comparison: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/997-turbo-forum/546778-2010-tt-pdk-compared-to-nissan-gt-r.html
I think the PCCBs are a £5.6k option, but definitely worth the money IMO, and good value compared with what others charge.
Numerous benefits:
- Improved braking performance (hot or cold)
- No corrosion or brake dust (so wheels, hubs and discs stay clean indefinitely)
- Long life (pads will wear normally but discs should last 100,000 mls +)
- Significant unsprung weight saving - improving ride, handling and steering.
Really should be standard on Porsche's flagship models.
Numerous benefits:
- Improved braking performance (hot or cold)
- No corrosion or brake dust (so wheels, hubs and discs stay clean indefinitely)
- Long life (pads will wear normally but discs should last 100,000 mls +)
- Significant unsprung weight saving - improving ride, handling and steering.
Really should be standard on Porsche's flagship models.
Alex
Many thanks for the link to that review. Great to read something balanced and intelligent written by someone without an axe to grind or magazine to sell. Though in fairness to the journos I think you could distill similar conclusions from a the EVO and Autocar articles once the froth had been cleared away.
Although I never remotely considered the Nissan, based on his views I would take the turbo anyway as I am looking for a Grand Tourer not a track weapon and at my age NVH matters!
Cheers
Nick
Many thanks for the link to that review. Great to read something balanced and intelligent written by someone without an axe to grind or magazine to sell. Though in fairness to the journos I think you could distill similar conclusions from a the EVO and Autocar articles once the froth had been cleared away.
Although I never remotely considered the Nissan, based on his views I would take the turbo anyway as I am looking for a Grand Tourer not a track weapon and at my age NVH matters!
Cheers
Nick
Tom,
Thanks for the offer and I'd certainly like to take you up on that next time. []
Bear in mind, in comparision to yours, the TT has more grunt and is a fair bit heavier.
Also, is it likely the owner of a new TT will want to fiddle around sourcing after-market brakes for the sake of saving couple of grand?.......... Somehow I doubt it.
Additionally, there are lifing and residual value considerations. When the time it comes to sell it on, CCB's will be the norm. on such cars and those without will likely be disadvantaged. [] Just a thought!
On the question of cost, I would go for the brakes in favour of some of the other toys every time.
Nothing enhances performance, safety and driving pleasure more than a decent set of anchors. []
Regards,
Clive
Thanks for the offer and I'd certainly like to take you up on that next time. [
]Bear in mind, in comparision to yours, the TT has more grunt and is a fair bit heavier.
Also, is it likely the owner of a new TT will want to fiddle around sourcing after-market brakes for the sake of saving couple of grand?.......... Somehow I doubt it.
Additionally, there are lifing and residual value considerations. When the time it comes to sell it on, CCB's will be the norm. on such cars and those without will likely be disadvantaged. [
] Just a thought!On the question of cost, I would go for the brakes in favour of some of the other toys every time.
Nothing enhances performance, safety and driving pleasure more than a decent set of anchors. [
]Regards,
Clive
ORIGINAL: okellyt
Clive
I think indicated I was leaning in your direction in my write up. What I can't get my head over is the cost of the Ceramics, now nearly £8k - whereas I can get OEM after market 380mm eight pot (not six) Brembo's designed for Porsche's for approx £2.25k, including pagid yellows - which as I have discovered on my current car give fantastic feel and adjustability.
Next time were out together give my beast a run and tell me what you think of the steel brakes. I find mine more consistent and less grabby than the ceramics let alone the steel ones.
Having said that I agree with you that the standard brakes on the TT were difficult to modulate easily - I found it much harder work to finesse them than on mine. So I preferred them yes but I could put the Brembo OEM 380's on and pocket over £5k.....................................
But to offer an olive branch, help me find an obscenely well paid job and I'll order the ceramics without hesitation. [
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