964 RSR For Sale ... ?
- Thread starter carreraboy
- Start date
DSCBoy
New member
Sorry Des... didn't mean to cast doubts... but I was pretty certain I'd been told that this was a shell that had seen duty on the Cup car and then replaced after a smack. Which Alzen then combined with a crashed Turbo's running gear and had to hang his own VIN on it as the actual VIN was still on the Cup car.
All made sense as there is deffo some claimed race history for the shell as a Cup car right? And if the shell came off the Cup car, which it must have done or you'd be buying a cup car+VIN it wasn't replaced for the fun of it. And if you were building it from scratch surely you'd have just got a Turbo shell from the factory and rebuilt the 965 rather than cutting in the wheel arches on a cup shell?
I was told the only Cup/RS bit on the car was the shell and that's had more hits than the Beatles? ;-)
Would love to know the full story if my source was wrong...
All made sense as there is deffo some claimed race history for the shell as a Cup car right? And if the shell came off the Cup car, which it must have done or you'd be buying a cup car+VIN it wasn't replaced for the fun of it. And if you were building it from scratch surely you'd have just got a Turbo shell from the factory and rebuilt the 965 rather than cutting in the wheel arches on a cup shell?
I was told the only Cup/RS bit on the car was the shell and that's had more hits than the Beatles? ;-)
Would love to know the full story if my source was wrong...
davidcross
New member
Good holiday Rick? I'm about to take off 
Hi Rick,
Who knows at the moment mate ...... see http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=754874&mpage=4&key=򹃪
Have a great Holiday, by the way My Dad played back your Flower of Scotland record attempt the other day and my mum 87 commented what a good looking fella you are!
jason
New member
That would explain why it didn't have the original Cup car VIN still I guess....that's what i couldn't work out....if they had rebuilt this car from the Cup shell?
Does that mean the actual Cup car may still be in existence somewhere and using the original VIN plate but maybe a different shell now?
Happens a lot with old race cars I believe....VIN moving to different shells, especially when they become valuable in the future...
You'd think it would be easy to find out what the VIN's were of the Alzen Cup and Supercup cars but Hacki thinks records on these are poor[&o]
Hi Jason,
We seem to have a tandem thread, but none the less an interesting departure here. Well having done some more limited research as I am on Easter break with my boys ... I have made contact with Herr Botz, please see tandem Thread in Modified Section ... He seems to know a lot more.
There were two cars built to road legal spec, my wide body chassis JA*********01 and narrow body I call the sister car presumably JA*********02 (still awaiting confirmation) from the two Alzen Maritime Cup Cars which were now retired for the new 993 Cup season. Both cars in the same yellow. Not sure if the other car has similar engine etc. As these were the first builds and being new builds and road registered Alzen presumably for their type approval used Alzen TUV approved new car manufacturer status to register the cars as same. At the time any provenance of Cup Cars was totally worthless and this was the chosen route.
Not sure about dscboy stories about being bashed crashed and thrashed shells but a close inspection of mine will reveal a tight and alligned chassis with good shut lines. I can't imagine Alzen starting from new choosing anything but a straight car to start with, sure these are race cars so maybe tweeking here and there.
According to Herr Botz mine is car 15 and the sister car is number 2. As time has gone on we all know now how valuable these ex-race cars are. So as posted in other thread by RSGULP an interview with Uwe Alzen, his (2) Cup Car is referred as then being built wide body! So either way I am happy to have either as a donor chassis, it's now a question of getting some proof in black and white.
I have no reason to convert the car back, just enjoy it as it was built and be happy with the history of the donor Cup Car.
3.30am!
Just to add it would be nice to have the donor car original Porsche Cup VIN in the paperwork.
Link to Thread ....
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=754874
We seem to have a tandem thread, but none the less an interesting departure here. Well having done some more limited research as I am on Easter break with my boys ... I have made contact with Herr Botz, please see tandem Thread in Modified Section ... He seems to know a lot more.
There were two cars built to road legal spec, my wide body chassis JA*********01 and narrow body I call the sister car presumably JA*********02 (still awaiting confirmation) from the two Alzen Maritime Cup Cars which were now retired for the new 993 Cup season. Both cars in the same yellow. Not sure if the other car has similar engine etc. As these were the first builds and being new builds and road registered Alzen presumably for their type approval used Alzen TUV approved new car manufacturer status to register the cars as same. At the time any provenance of Cup Cars was totally worthless and this was the chosen route.
Not sure about dscboy stories about being bashed crashed and thrashed shells but a close inspection of mine will reveal a tight and alligned chassis with good shut lines. I can't imagine Alzen starting from new choosing anything but a straight car to start with, sure these are race cars so maybe tweeking here and there.
According to Herr Botz mine is car 15 and the sister car is number 2. As time has gone on we all know now how valuable these ex-race cars are. So as posted in other thread by RSGULP an interview with Uwe Alzen, his (2) Cup Car is referred as then being built wide body! So either way I am happy to have either as a donor chassis, it's now a question of getting some proof in black and white.
I have no reason to convert the car back, just enjoy it as it was built and be happy with the history of the donor Cup Car.
3.30am!
Just to add it would be nice to have the donor car original Porsche Cup VIN in the paperwork.
Link to Thread ....
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=754874
DSCBoy
New member
I was told both the 1992 and 1993 cup cars were sold off but both of then had been rebodied during the seasons after shunts. Meaning Alzen was long a couple of shells at the end of the project. One was then built into a narrow-bodied and one into a wide bodied road car.
But as with many of these things, rumour/conjecture and no-one really knows the truth.
BUT my source would make sense as surely you'd still have the original VIN otherwise. And also a few more original cup parts other than a shell and a spare set of rims?
At then end of the day, still a great car with some great history Des and I'm very pleased for you. You will have lots of fun in it I'm sure.
Cheers
Rick
PS Thanks for asking Dave... 10pm Bali.... 30 degs... G&T cold though.
PPS Can I just say what fabulous taste your mum has Des?
But as with many of these things, rumour/conjecture and no-one really knows the truth.
BUT my source would make sense as surely you'd still have the original VIN otherwise. And also a few more original cup parts other than a shell and a spare set of rims?
At then end of the day, still a great car with some great history Des and I'm very pleased for you. You will have lots of fun in it I'm sure.
Cheers
Rick
PS Thanks for asking Dave... 10pm Bali.... 30 degs... G&T cold though.
PPS Can I just say what fabulous taste your mum has Des?
To avoid any confusion Heinrich Botz (in this link http://porsche-scene.de/szene-live/motor-features/detailansicht/article/1992-uwe-alzen-25-dritter-titeltraeger-im-carrera-cup.html ) implies the 1992 Cup Car (number 15) was sold to make way for the 1993 Supecup Car (Number 2). Number 15 in whatever guise became the wide body.
Whether that was a spare shell after previous re-shell I guess is what needs to be established and, as has been mentioned, could be why Des's car now has an Alzen VIN. Rick are you going to share your source with Des? [
].
jason
New member
All good fun. []
I love stuff like this. [8D]
Just spent 9 months building the back history on another of my cars and this week found the one missing link that I thought would always be impossible - a 70 year old guy who was the owner for a couple of years back in 1974. All I had was a name and a State - Lee Bell and Colorado in the USA....not exactly an uncommon name either, Lee Bell.
Still can't believe I've found him and he's emailed me back! [&:]
Des what's the shell number on your car?
]I love stuff like this. [8D]
Just spent 9 months building the back history on another of my cars and this week found the one missing link that I thought would always be impossible - a 70 year old guy who was the owner for a couple of years back in 1974. All I had was a name and a State - Lee Bell and Colorado in the USA....not exactly an uncommon name either, Lee Bell.
Still can't believe I've found him and he's emailed me back! [&:]
Des what's the shell number on your car?
ORIGINAL: RSGulp
To avoid any confusion Heinrich Botz (in this link http://porsche-scene.de/szene-live/motor-features/detailansicht/article/1992-uwe-alzen-25-dritter-titeltraeger-im-carrera-cup.html ) implies the 1992 Cup Car (number 15) was sold to make way for the 1993 Supecup Car (Number 2). Number 15 in whatever guise became the wide body.
Whether that was a spare shell after previous re-shell I guess is what needs to be established and, as has been mentioned, could be why Des's car now has an Alzen VIN. Rick are you going to share your source with Des? [
.
Three cars were built all Turbo engined ALL Alzen Vin numbers all registered as NEW manufactured Alzen cars two narrow one wideboy .... shells, chassis, numbers merry go round in a race team .... all maritime all raced ...... will enjoy[
]
Hacki
Active member
The problem to find out about Shell / Chassis no. pairs has been discussed in the parallel thread. The records on the 1990 and 1991 cars are indeed poor, the Porsche Archive -run by Mr. Landenberger- in fact has info from 1992 on about Cup cars. For the earlier ones there will be the standard info available that you can get for every Porsche. So I was told today -again.
Not sure who told you that rubbish. Apart from the obvious front and rear arch replacements to wide body the core part of the shell looks extremely original to both myself and my Porsche body shop guy who was trained in the factory in the 90's on body repairs. I don't doubt that front and rear fenders / arches were damaged during racing, and were replaced in period, but it's been very well cared for since, and I know all the owners since it was first registered in December 1992.
Personally I think it's unfair to spread rumours about peoples cars.
DSCBoy
New member
Paul,
I spent a lot of time with Alzen's in '04 when we were all in the LMES together.
I was sure they sold off both Cup cars intact (I'm told by my German buddies that they are out there?), so Des on here claiming that this yellow one is one or the other of them didn't make a lot of sense unless it was built into a reshell. Hence my tongue-in-cheek comment (clue was the smiley).
They are pretty unlikely to have taken a new shell and chopped it about to put the arches on it: if they were just reshelling shunted 964 Turbos, surely you'd have just bought a new (cheaper allowing for the work etc) Turbo shell? However, I'm pretty sure they told me that they purchased some shells cheaply at the end of the 964 Cup and also carried a spare shell on the truck during the season. So if it is as tight as you say, perhaps it's from one of those? This does kill Des' hopes that it has race provenance, but feels most likely to me.
You state that you believe that the fenders/arches were damaged in racing, which is pretty much what I was implying in my comments, but we both know as racers you wouldn't have reshelled the car just for that (unless they were mega short of time between races and it was quicker). And nor would they have destroyed the Cup Car VIN to put an "Alzen" VIN on it. So it makes sense that those racers are, as we've heard, still out there.
I agree it's wrong to spread rumours both positive and negative, and I think what we were trying to have here was a sensible discussion of the history of this car, in a lighthearted fashion given Des' usual approach to this board and in light of his somewhat sensationalist claims for this vehicle.
It's clearly a fabulous bit of kit which we'd all be happy to have as a play-thing, but let's keep our feet on the ground because I still don't see a whole lot of Porsche factory or RS in this car beyond the shell which may have a chequered flag history or just a chequered one.
And I would hate for someone to purchase the car at some point in the near future and look at this board as their research and there just be people saying "Yes Des, clearly you've managed to find the (not actually) missing Championship winning cup car and it must be easily worth twice what you paid now it's had a magazine article written on it to back up these amazing claims" when it simply doesn't add up to what we know.
Although I'm sure Des will be putting this one in the collection to hand on to his descendants and it won't be back on the market in the coming years.
I have no axe to grind here, and I'd love to discover this car had a fabulous history and is actually a Championship-winning Cup car with a turbo motor dropped in because it would be a great story and great discovery. But I think our understanding of it being a reshell of the cup car is it's best chance of having a race history even if it might have taken a few knocks.
Please feel free to tell us any history you may know of this car and correct the above of course! We are all friends here and so much of what we hear is second-hand, any enlightenment on the history of the RS's is always welcome.
Cheers
Rick
I spent a lot of time with Alzen's in '04 when we were all in the LMES together.
I was sure they sold off both Cup cars intact (I'm told by my German buddies that they are out there?), so Des on here claiming that this yellow one is one or the other of them didn't make a lot of sense unless it was built into a reshell. Hence my tongue-in-cheek comment (clue was the smiley).
They are pretty unlikely to have taken a new shell and chopped it about to put the arches on it: if they were just reshelling shunted 964 Turbos, surely you'd have just bought a new (cheaper allowing for the work etc) Turbo shell? However, I'm pretty sure they told me that they purchased some shells cheaply at the end of the 964 Cup and also carried a spare shell on the truck during the season. So if it is as tight as you say, perhaps it's from one of those? This does kill Des' hopes that it has race provenance, but feels most likely to me.
You state that you believe that the fenders/arches were damaged in racing, which is pretty much what I was implying in my comments, but we both know as racers you wouldn't have reshelled the car just for that (unless they were mega short of time between races and it was quicker). And nor would they have destroyed the Cup Car VIN to put an "Alzen" VIN on it. So it makes sense that those racers are, as we've heard, still out there.
I agree it's wrong to spread rumours both positive and negative, and I think what we were trying to have here was a sensible discussion of the history of this car, in a lighthearted fashion given Des' usual approach to this board and in light of his somewhat sensationalist claims for this vehicle.
It's clearly a fabulous bit of kit which we'd all be happy to have as a play-thing, but let's keep our feet on the ground because I still don't see a whole lot of Porsche factory or RS in this car beyond the shell which may have a chequered flag history or just a chequered one.
And I would hate for someone to purchase the car at some point in the near future and look at this board as their research and there just be people saying "Yes Des, clearly you've managed to find the (not actually) missing Championship winning cup car and it must be easily worth twice what you paid now it's had a magazine article written on it to back up these amazing claims" when it simply doesn't add up to what we know.
Although I'm sure Des will be putting this one in the collection to hand on to his descendants and it won't be back on the market in the coming years.
I have no axe to grind here, and I'd love to discover this car had a fabulous history and is actually a Championship-winning Cup car with a turbo motor dropped in because it would be a great story and great discovery. But I think our understanding of it being a reshell of the cup car is it's best chance of having a race history even if it might have taken a few knocks.
Please feel free to tell us any history you may know of this car and correct the above of course! We are all friends here and so much of what we hear is second-hand, any enlightenment on the history of the RS's is always welcome.
Cheers
Rick
Rick I appreciate what you're saying, but it does read like you're trying to make it sound less of car by saying things like it's just a shell not much else. It has the following: Same brake components as an RS including high pressure pump, hydraulic distribution unit, master cylinder, ABS brain, front disks and front calipers. Rear end has turbo trailing arms to allow the narrow body Speedline 3 piece Cup wheels to fit. They are genuine Cup car ones. Rather than RS it runs Turbo 3.6 rear disks and calipers. It did have all Cup top mounts, but I put 993 RS top mounts on the front as the Cup ones are non adjustable with far too much camber for road use, rears still fitted to the car. It has stiffer bushes fitted to front A arms, same wheel hubs as Cup car. Front dampers are 993 RS, rears are 964 RS, which are fitted for better road compliance than the Cup dampers. When I first got the car way back in 2004 the Cup dampers were knackered as it had been sat for several years having never been started. It needed new and I wanted more road compliance. It also has a correct ally bonnet fitted with shell number on it. To say it's "Just a shell" isn't right and trying to play the car down too much. Just my humble opinion. Apart from the obvious engine, gearbox, rear brake hardware and trailing arms, what else are you expecting to see?
DSCBoy
New member
Sorry Paul,
Not trying to do the car down in terms of content. Just debating how much of it is likely to have seen active race service in the Cup Championship. Sounds like it has some fabulous bits on it. But it simply isn't the Championship winning cup car with a Turbo motor dropped into it is it as it appeared was initially being claimed on here.
I don't doubt it's a great bit of kit.
Rick
Not trying to do the car down in terms of content. Just debating how much of it is likely to have seen active race service in the Cup Championship. Sounds like it has some fabulous bits on it. But it simply isn't the Championship winning cup car with a Turbo motor dropped into it is it as it appeared was initially being claimed on here.
I don't doubt it's a great bit of kit.
Rick
Rick, there have been several emails in the background with Germany ... Alzen himself has confirmed the car was built on a Alzen Cup Car, in fact two cars were built in 1993 both from worthless Cups that were around in 1992 season. Others here have said the winning car was made wide body. In 1993 they took delivery of the supercup car which was also rebuilt for a customer. You can't say there was an actual winning car, as Paul has pointed out, race numbers and drivers swapped around. But I am confident the car campaigned in 1992.
What is NOT in question the fact is it's genuine non- supercup Cup Chassis, maritime blue.
Had a chance to drive the car more now .... Anyway will enjoy []
What is NOT in question the fact is it's genuine non- supercup Cup Chassis, maritime blue.
Had a chance to drive the car more now .... Anyway will enjoy [
]
So did the silver car at the start of this thread sell?
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