964 RSR For Sale ... ?

[Barty964rst]

ORIGINAL: Damen

Interesting post, Simon.

Its not based on an RS, there are too many give aways. The fussy amongst us will notice them. For example, no 964 RS ever had three rocker switches on the centre console. Its a standard 964 with 993 bits at best. As for price, its too rich.

Damen

Agreed on this car, I was generalising on the modified 64 RS's that were being offered for sale at vastly increased prices for what I perceive as modified 64RS's.
However, I do own a genuine RS 964 that has factory options of - electric windows, Sunroof, rear belts and wash wipes for the headlights. So basically a C2 specked RS ! But for those who have driven my car a true original RS, no compromise everyday RS!


Edited for an 'l' omitted from the spelling of original

 

[h_____]

Des think long and hard before messing with the Alzen car......What ever spec you put it in, it would be worth ensuring the car ran in that spec at somepoint in its history. I do think that the work Altzen did is worth preserving. Would also be nice to understand the history of the car.

 

[DSCBoy]

I'm lost here guys... I agree with Des about putting it back into it's cup livery as I'm not sure "preserving" it as the Bitza it currently is helps at all beyond the fact I imagine it's huge fun to drive (if a little underpowered ;-) )

If I've understood this right, it's a smashed up cup shell that Alzen repaired with wider arches and dropped a spare turbo motor into? Appreciate I'm not the man to be throwing stones about wrong engines etc... but I fail to see how it has any "history" as is... or have I missed something?

Or are we seeing the start of a new "build a myth" process for this car? (Sorry, tad cynical).
Must admit, I'm amazed how different the cup split-rims looks on a RSR body compared to the correct ones as well... must be some big old spacers in there somewhere I'm guessing?

Think "drive it, enjoy it" are the key words here... if it's an investment then it needs a lot of love and expenditure and I'm not sure how you'd up the value unless you can prove Alzen raced it with the wider arches and then try and put it back to that spec/colour scheme. Which means a RSR motor and I know where there is a a brand new one for sale for only Euro 45k...

As for the pink one, surely the guy believes it was built on an RS to be trying to charge that price?? Even if he's wrong!

Rick

 

[kasbridge]

ORIGINAL: Damen

Interesting post, Simon.

Its not based on an RS, there are too many give aways. The fussy amongst us will notice them. For example, no 964 RS ever had three rocker switches on the centre console. Its a standard 964 with 993 bits at best. As for price, its too rich.

Damen

This exposes the variety of the RS world - several did come out of the factory with 3 switches, mine included, to allow the fitment of the switch to activate the "special wishes" specified working front fog lights.

I did think about removing them and fitting ducts but funnily enough they dont seem to slow the car round Oulton too much, and if I forgo the ful english I reckon therre is no weight penalty either []

 

[paul howells]

At last the club membership are getting it,dont rape a car,as it will certainly be regretted in years to come.

ORIGINAL: PhilRS

I would also keep it "as is" and have fun with it on the track, or return it to its original condition, stickers and all and sell it, or admire it in my conservatory (but I would first need to build one, or perhaps buy a house that would suit the car).

Worse thing I ever did in my Porsche ownership was to return my RSR to original '93 season form, stickers and all, and then thinking was I saw it "It does look great but I really don't feel like trashing this beauty queen around a track anymore." I will never repeat this experience again. I still believe that race cars are meant to be driven hard.

Collier (or Collier collection fame) famously said that restoring a race car was akin to rape. I quite like the fact that my cup still has its old stickers on the roll cage and patina everywhere.

 

[clubsport]

ORIGINAL: Damen

Interesting post, Simon.

Its not based on an RS, there are too many give aways. The fussy amongst us will notice them. For example, no 964 RS ever had three rocker switches on the centre console. Its a standard 964 with 993 bits at best. As for price, its too rich.

Damen

Are you serious?....switches....

The car is clearly very modified, if they can stick an RSR bodykit and a 993 engine and box in the car, I wouldn't put it past them to add a couple of cheeky switches to the console! []

A serious buyer would obviously ask for the chassis number, you would have to assume the seller would be able to back his "originally an RS" claim up otherwise the car would be worth considerably less as we all agree.

On looks alone, it would be difficult to tell the base car and as values climb, it becomes feasible to spend money on the RS features to try to make them fit in.

As it could so easily be proven by chassis number, surely we have to assume this is/was a real RS?

 

[h_____]

ORIGINAL: DSCBoy

I'm lost here guys... I agree with Des about putting it back into it's cup livery as I'm not sure "preserving" it as the Bitza it currently is helps at all beyond the fact I imagine it's huge fun to drive (if a little underpowered ;-) )

If I've understood this right, it's a smashed up cup shell that Alzen repaired with wider arches and dropped a spare turbo motor into? Appreciate I'm not the man to be throwing stones about wrong engines etc... but I fail to see how it has any "history" as is... or have I missed something?

Or are we seeing the start of a new "build a myth" process for this car? (Sorry, tad cynical).
Must admit, I'm amazed how different the cup split-rims looks on a RSR body compared to the correct ones as well... must be some big old spacers in there somewhere I'm guessing?

Think "drive it, enjoy it" are the key words here... if it's an investment then it needs a lot of love and expenditure and I'm not sure how you'd up the value unless you can prove Alzen raced it with the wider arches and then try and put it back to that spec/colour scheme. Which means a RSR motor and I know where there is a a brand new one for sale for only Euro 45k...

As for the pink one, surely the guy believes it was built on an RS to be trying to charge that price?? Even if he's wrong!

Rick

Maybe I dont understand the history as well as I thought. I thought the car was taken from a factory shell, then had wide arches and the 3.3 turbo motor added, hence the car got an Altzen Vin plate....I'm only going on paddock talk not a position of fact. I also thought that Altzen had built the car in that spec to race, and then raced it.

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: DSCBoy

I'm lost here guys... I agree with Des about putting it back into it's cup livery as I'm not sure "preserving" it as the Bitza it currently is helps at all beyond the fact I imagine it's huge fun to drive (if a little underpowered ;-) )

If I've understood this right, it's a smashed up cup shell that Alzen repaired with wider arches and dropped a spare turbo motor into? Appreciate I'm not the man to be throwing stones about wrong engines etc... but I fail to see how it has any "history" as is... or have I missed something?

Or are we seeing the start of a new "build a myth" process for this car? (Sorry, tad cynical).
Must admit, I'm amazed how different the cup split-rims looks on a RSR body compared to the correct ones as well... must be some big old spacers in there somewhere I'm guessing?

Think "drive it, enjoy it" are the key words here... if it's an investment then it needs a lot of love and expenditure and I'm not sure how you'd up the value unless you can prove Alzen raced it with the wider arches and then try and put it back to that spec/colour scheme. Which means a RSR motor and I know where there is a a brand new one for sale for only Euro 45k...

As for the pink one, surely the guy believes it was built on an RS to be trying to charge that price?? Even if he's wrong!

Rick

Rick it is a genuine Jurgen Alzen Motorsport built car the first one as with RUF Alzen are a recognised German Car Maker ... os its an Alzen Cup Build and will alwys be AND NOT A BITSA Thank you. Car was built from an original 964 Cup Car in Maritime blue as raced in the championship 1992 winning season, there is no doubt. So I am very comfortable with usable investment with race provenance mate .... []

 

[h_____]

So Des, the narrow bodied maritine cup car was raced for a year and the used as the base to convert into the yellow machine (widebody, 3.3 turbo today)? At this point the chassis is replated as an Altzen car is that right?

Interesting - in which case I do think it should be left in its second incarnation (i.e. yellow wide body with 3.3 engine.).

I've always thought it was a lovely car, and have hankered after it myself.

 

[carreraboy]

Correct Hugh, like the N-GT but on steroids!

 

[clubsport]

A few photos from earlier of THE Alzen 965 Turbo "S" RSR Cup "S" Clubsport "S" Turbo!!!!!

Posted here;

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=754874&mpage=1&key=&#756427

 

[Talat]

My understanding was that it was built for the boss of H&R Suspension to race in some race series but then was never actually raced. Has more history now been uncovered ?

 

[jason]

Ok I'm totally confused.

What do we actually know for certain on this?

Was the chassis an original Supercup from 92? Does it have this cars original VIN still (presuming Supercups have VINs?) if not why? Surely Alzen would have built it with original VIN if it had one? Or was it a replacement shell given to Alzen who then built an Alzen car onto this new shell in RUF like styley?

I'm presuming it doesn't have the original Porsche VIN and now has an Alzen VIN in which case what is the shell number?

Surely Porsche can tell you what the shell was originally used for and where and when it went - does it fit in with existing shell sequences?

Was the car built like it is now from scratch as Talat says for a customer and then never raced? Or was it a previous race car rebuilt and if it was how do we know? Shell number?

I like this car (partial to a wide body as I am) but I'm confused to hell now on what it was/has been?

Can we have its known proven history from scratch before I go completely mental??

Or is that the issue, we don't fully know it yet?

Wide body 964...Mmmmmmm!

 

[clubsport]

Jason.

Page 1, post #10.

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=754874&mpage=1&key=

"Thanks Vic but not any SuperCup Shell ... the 1992 Uwe Alzen Championship winning team Chassis .... these cars were totally redundant following the 964 Carrera Cup ..... Client comes and asks for a bespoke build and JA 000 *****000001 was born from the ashes of the SuperCup car originally Maritime Blue .. The Ghost is there ... will keep it totally original as Jurgen Alzen Motorsport 965 Cup!"


It helps if you imagine the lady from the M&S advertisement speaking..."This is not any cup car, but a..........."[]

 

[Hacki]

ORIGINAL: jason

Surely Porsche can tell you what the shell was originally used for and where and when it went

I doubt that.

 

[jason]

ORIGINAL: Hacki

ORIGINAL: jason

Surely Porsche can tell you what the shell was originally used for and where and when it went

I doubt that.

Why? The archives don't have records of every shell number? I doubt that. They knew mine and when it comes to vintage and prototype stuff you'd be amazed at what info is held.

I'd be very surprised if this shell number is not recorded and if it was then they will know what VIN it went to originally if it did go to one.

Interesting Paul. Is that verified at all or recent purchase 'Des speak'[][][]

Are we saying this actual shell won the Supercup in 92? Or was part of a team that won or...

You need to be a bloody detective to try and work out what the hell is real and what is hyperbole in threads these days!

Knowing 100% what is verified correct would actually help in the debate on what to do with it, although personally I see no point in changing it from what it is now.

 

[clubsport]

Surely Porsche have records of shell numbers and which teams they were sent to.

Otherwise, there will be no way to disprove a converted C2 shell with a cup conversion.

This is old ground, we have been over this, replicas can be made, but the truth is there if you put the work into finding it.

Of course, in some cases you can search until you find something you like the sound of and stop there!

e.g. I am reasonably sure my car was at the N24 in 1996.........there is a picture of a car that looks just like it in the public car park.....I'm not sure the second part of that sentence is quite so interesting though!? []

 

[Hacki]

ORIGINAL: jason

ORIGINAL: Hacki

ORIGINAL: jason

Surely Porsche can tell you what the shell was originally used for and where and when it went

I doubt that.

Why?

The research for the early Cup cars showed that the Porsche files are not complete for the 964 Cups. It´s easier for earlier and later cars, but for some reason these info have been missing. (Otherwise it would have been easy to solve the riddle of the Kermit car.)
I understand that this car is a 92 Supercup car, so it could be difficult to sort the numbers out.

On the other hand, I haven´t tried to get additional info ever since (about 2 yrs ago that was).
If there should be a complete liste of VINs and Shell nos. from 1990 to 1992 Cup cars and to whom they were sent, I´d be glad to have a look!

Rgds,

Hacki

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: jason

ORIGINAL: Hacki

ORIGINAL: jason

Surely Porsche can tell you what the shell was originally used for and where and when it went

I doubt that.

Why? The archives don't have records of every shell number? I doubt that. They knew mine and when it comes to vintage and prototype stuff you'd be amazed at what info is held.

I'd be very surprised if this shell number is not recorded and if it was then they will know what VIN it went to originally if it did go to one.

Interesting Paul. Is that verified at all or recent purchase 'Des speak'[][][]

Are we saying this actual shell won the Supercup in 92? Or was part of a team that won or...

You need to be a bloody detective to try and work out what the hell is real and what is hyperbole in threads these days!

Knowing 100% what is verified correct would actually help in the debate on what to do with it, although personally I see no point in changing it from what it is now.

Keeping it original as is ....

 

[Hacki]

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

Keeping it original as is ....

Perfect!