Building a 400bhp+ 2.5 ltr 944 Turbo
- Thread starter PSH
- Start date
PSH
PCGB Member
blade7 said:How much of it is growing out of your ears, nose and on your back though [PSH said:Nah...I still have my hair.....................just..blade7 said:PSH said:Not quite that fast but I bet she's a 4 sec car.
Are you Vin Diesel [
These days I could probably audition for the next werewolf...
Rapsey0909
New member
Ive not long joined the forum and i have been reading this thread, its fascinating how much can be done to the car not that I understand much of it but its cool anyway.
Just a quick question is the original hp figures (on my car i think its 163) at the rear wheels?
Just a quick question is the original hp figures (on my car i think its 163) at the rear wheels?
Rapsey0909
New member
So when you are looking for 400hp I’m assuming thats the same yes
PSH
PCGB Member
yes.. btw these cars don't lose vast amounts of power between crank and wheels when compared to others.... no prop shaft to waste it..... when my car was 368bhp at the crank the figure given for the wheels was IIRC approx 330bhp. This was about 15 years ago so memory fades... I have the graph somewhere.Rapsey0909 said:
Pete
Rapsey0909
New member
That's great, what I was trying to do is gauge where I would like my 2.5 NA to be after I get the car running nice and put some plans in place.
I would like somewhere around 200 hp without the large work of a turbo, I read a really good thread on here about the head porting being the key but I'm reading about bolt on parts that QUOTE extra hp gains but not sure if they are being very optimistic with the numbers
Exhaust heads 8hp
chip 10hp
maf/map 8hp
air filter 3hp
so add that on top of the 163 (I don't think it still has that but will try and get some back with good maintenance)
Then if we go with a road race cam its clamed to get 10% increase which would take the total to 211 hp.
But I am assuming its just not that easy....
I would like somewhere around 200 hp without the large work of a turbo, I read a really good thread on here about the head porting being the key but I'm reading about bolt on parts that QUOTE extra hp gains but not sure if they are being very optimistic with the numbers
Exhaust heads 8hp
chip 10hp
maf/map 8hp
air filter 3hp
so add that on top of the 163 (I don't think it still has that but will try and get some back with good maintenance)
Then if we go with a road race cam its clamed to get 10% increase which would take the total to 211 hp.
But I am assuming its just not that easy....
PSH
PCGB Member
No, it's not easy and getting more power from an N/A is much harder than you may think. Bolt-on parts claim more power but getting 30+ bhp extra from an N/A, any N/A will take more than bolt-on alone. Also bear in mind that a race cam is not really suitable for road use, you'll have a higher idle which may run a bit lumpy. Regarding head porting, you need to be careful here as you need some roughness to help the fuel atomize properly. I would get the car running as well as possible, driveability is just as important as power. Get the suspension and brakes sorted, a set of Koni adjustable will transform the car for not too much money.
PSH
PCGB Member
Had a play with an older 911 the other day, well it would have been rude not to acknowledge a car that comes up behind you at speed and then matches your speed ( I was already over the speed limit ) alongside you in the other lane, we all know what that means....
This event did remind me that I still need to get the car remapped in the higher gears though. I was in 5th, didn't floor it, just applied more throttle than I normally would, data showed 72%. The engine at first backfired, a couple of pops before I reduced throttle and the car took off like a scoulded cat, needless to say the other car didn't have a chance. I won't mention what speed I hit in those few seconds,,, someone my be watching...
This thing is rediculously quick, I really should make a trip north to see Wayne for a proper tune.
One day perhaps, mind you the way fuel prices are heading such a trip may not be a viable option for this retiree...
Pete
This event did remind me that I still need to get the car remapped in the higher gears though. I was in 5th, didn't floor it, just applied more throttle than I normally would, data showed 72%. The engine at first backfired, a couple of pops before I reduced throttle and the car took off like a scoulded cat, needless to say the other car didn't have a chance. I won't mention what speed I hit in those few seconds,,, someone my be watching...
This thing is rediculously quick, I really should make a trip north to see Wayne for a proper tune.
One day perhaps, mind you the way fuel prices are heading such a trip may not be a viable option for this retiree...
Pete
PSH
PCGB Member
I've just made an interesting observation... i have been giving the car a good clean inside and out and while at it have changed the settings on the boost gauge. By that I mean I have reset the gauge from the previous 1 BAR audible warning and also reset the log so that I can keep an eye on the max boost now being developed after fitting the new Turbosmart 38 gen 5 WG. To reset the stepper gauge it goes through its routine which shows the max boost acheived to date, I was surprised to note that it was showing over 1.7 BAR. The highest achieved with the Lindsey had been just over 1.5 BAR. So either the new WG's design is superior, or the old WG had a serious leak which is possible with its cracked valve seat.
I did get a small chance yesterday to open her up a little on my way to my ME club where the ECU cut off did engage once which is clearly where it hit the 1.7 BAR. As some of you will know my ECU is set to cut at 1.5 BAR, but as you'll also know I run a high 85% duty cycle which means the boost will spike above the ECU setting, you'll also recall this is why I have the stepper boost gauge fitted to give me an audible warning when holding the boost high for more than the usual few seconds.
As said yesterday in the other thread the car feels to be running better than ever, this may be why, that and the 1 BAR spring fitted to give me that N/A type response from low down.
What's next? good question..I still need to get the old girl into some fresh paint, other jobs that should be done for the simple reason that they have not been done yet are torque tube rebuild and transaxle refresh.
Pete
I did get a small chance yesterday to open her up a little on my way to my ME club where the ECU cut off did engage once which is clearly where it hit the 1.7 BAR. As some of you will know my ECU is set to cut at 1.5 BAR, but as you'll also know I run a high 85% duty cycle which means the boost will spike above the ECU setting, you'll also recall this is why I have the stepper boost gauge fitted to give me an audible warning when holding the boost high for more than the usual few seconds.
As said yesterday in the other thread the car feels to be running better than ever, this may be why, that and the 1 BAR spring fitted to give me that N/A type response from low down.
What's next? good question..I still need to get the old girl into some fresh paint, other jobs that should be done for the simple reason that they have not been done yet are torque tube rebuild and transaxle refresh.
Pete
PSH
PCGB Member
blade7 said:
Now there's a question?... no idea...I emailed my solicitor Friday, he said searches are back but nothing from tge buyers solicitors yet in response to the contracts he sent last week. I'm not that happy witb my solicitor, he hasn't copied me into anything...contract.. what contract? In comparison the sellors for the nrw place get copied in for everything, she showed me the draft contract that het solicitor sent to my solicitor.....i haven't even had that sent to me by my solicitir...lol
Sorry Pete but this sounds like a terrible boost controller setup.
You should be able to set your duty cycle by rpm on even the most rudimentary EBCs, I had it set by rpm and by gear on my Apexi AVC-R and with the 2-axis boost control table in VEMS I have it set by rpm and boost pressure.
Your DC should start low and increase as rpms increase - a blanket 85% DC is far too high and sounds like a user programming error. The whole point of a well setup EBC is that your boost won’t spike above your max and indeed it should hold it exactly where required.
Remind me what EBC you have and I’ll help you with the settings if you wish?
By way of example, this is my DC settings table - it spools up to 21psi and then holds it steady across an 1800rpm Rev range. That’s rpm across the top and boost pressure in kpa (plus 100 for atmo) up the side. Granted, I populated that table by analysing the boost logs from my ECU which I know you can’t do but its relatively straightforward to do with trial and error on the road too.
You should be able to set your duty cycle by rpm on even the most rudimentary EBCs, I had it set by rpm and by gear on my Apexi AVC-R and with the 2-axis boost control table in VEMS I have it set by rpm and boost pressure.
Your DC should start low and increase as rpms increase - a blanket 85% DC is far too high and sounds like a user programming error. The whole point of a well setup EBC is that your boost won’t spike above your max and indeed it should hold it exactly where required.
Remind me what EBC you have and I’ll help you with the settings if you wish?
By way of example, this is my DC settings table - it spools up to 21psi and then holds it steady across an 1800rpm Rev range. That’s rpm across the top and boost pressure in kpa (plus 100 for atmo) up the side. Granted, I populated that table by analysing the boost logs from my ECU which I know you can’t do but its relatively straightforward to do with trial and error on the road too.
PSH
PCGB Member
Ahh...it's not about having a bad EBC, actually I have the same APEXI as you...its about personal preferance to how I want the car to run. I am well aware of how to set the duty but prefer to reduce the lag. Increasing the duty cycle does exactly that but means the boost will spike above the chosen settings. It's a trade off which I have been using for over 7 years now. The stepper boost gauge is there to warn me when I'm about to go over the boost setting, I then decide in that split second whether to back off or keep my foot planted, the answer to that usually depends on what car is trying to impress me, btw I have yet to be impressed...
There's no programming error, just me and how I prefer the car to run, if I was to set by rpm with my turbo the drive would not be as much fun due to the lag and thus much slower in response.
I like how I have the car set up...its been a 23 year long development, its been fun and it hasn't stopped yet...
Pete
There's no programming error, just me and how I prefer the car to run, if I was to set by rpm with my turbo the drive would not be as much fun due to the lag and thus much slower in response.
I like how I have the car set up...its been a 23 year long development, its been fun and it hasn't stopped yet...
Pete
Sorry not sorry - you’ve got it set all wrong!!!
(I don’t have an Apexi any more as all my boost control is done by my ECU).
Turn all the fuzzy logic stuff off, set the duty cycle to 100% at the point below which the turbo starts to spool up properly - this is what reduces the lag and encourages early spool up - then set the DC at the rpm increments above that to give you the actual boost control you need as lag has already been eliminated by that point.
You can claim you know best but the results of your Overboost logs already show that your right foot isn’t as quick as a boost spike. I can post up 5 different dyno charts of boost from when I ran an Apexi, all showing early spool up and controlled peak boost held throughout the Rev range - no lag, no Overboost. Not because I’m a Jedi master and think I know best, but because I sat and learnt how to set up boost controllers from a Jap tuning specialist near me who could program an AVC-R in his sleep - he also holds the European drag record for a GTR that he built and programmed himself so he knows far more than we do.
You could always go wild and spend a couple of hours on the dyno, I'm willing to bet that the boost logs after someone has set your Apexi up properly will speak the irrefutable truth to convince you. Or are you worried you won’t hit 400bhp . . .
(I don’t have an Apexi any more as all my boost control is done by my ECU).
Turn all the fuzzy logic stuff off, set the duty cycle to 100% at the point below which the turbo starts to spool up properly - this is what reduces the lag and encourages early spool up - then set the DC at the rpm increments above that to give you the actual boost control you need as lag has already been eliminated by that point.
You can claim you know best but the results of your Overboost logs already show that your right foot isn’t as quick as a boost spike. I can post up 5 different dyno charts of boost from when I ran an Apexi, all showing early spool up and controlled peak boost held throughout the Rev range - no lag, no Overboost. Not because I’m a Jedi master and think I know best, but because I sat and learnt how to set up boost controllers from a Jap tuning specialist near me who could program an AVC-R in his sleep - he also holds the European drag record for a GTR that he built and programmed himself so he knows far more than we do.
You could always go wild and spend a couple of hours on the dyno, I'm willing to bet that the boost logs after someone has set your Apexi up properly will speak the irrefutable truth to convince you. Or are you worried you won’t hit 400bhp . . .
PSH
PCGB Member
You've not hearing me sir...I have the car as I like it, no more, no less...as for hitting 400...no problem...
Yes I could spend time playing but see no need...the car is fast enough....one day I may get Wayne to check the map but for now I have far more important things to be getting on with....the car is not as important to me today as it was 20 years ago.. it spends more time parked than driven...plus I'm no spring chicken any more...
Yes I could spend time playing but see no need...the car is fast enough....one day I may get Wayne to check the map but for now I have far more important things to be getting on with....the car is not as important to me today as it was 20 years ago.. it spends more time parked than driven...plus I'm no spring chicken any more...
PSH
PCGB Member
blade7 said:Your car, your rules Pete. But posting about gains from your new WG, and then batting away advice from Eldavo about setting up your EBC for the best results don't make much sense to me. [
Each to their own Paul....a long time ago I did spend sone time playing around with the EBC and its settings....following the suggested online info but I found the engine had too much lag with the big turbo....further testing and I found my compromise at 85%.... I know some who prefer 100%. I'm not dismissing what David said, just that its not for me...as I said...each to their own...
Oh and I'm sure there are faster 951's than mine out there, perhaps David's is one of them... I just happen get the most fun from mine as she stands.
Pete
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