Cayman GT4: Where are we up to now?

[Motorhead]

A good comparison between a race car and track-day car Ralph, and a very neat job adapting GT3 parts for the Cayman. 3lb for the lightweight door versus 50lb for the standard item more than cancels out the additional weight of the PDK transmission. Going down that "rat hole", interesting to hear a proper race driver's input on the manual vs PDK comparison, in particular his comment relating to lower driver stress levels when downshifting [fear of buzzing the engine with a manual 'box], allowing the driver to better concentrate on driving the car. Jeff

 

[Andy Fagan]

ORIGINAL: Motorhead Going down that "rat hole", interesting to hear a proper race driver's input on the manual vs PDK comparison, in particular his comment relating to lower driver stress levels when downshifting [fear of buzzing the engine with a manual 'box], allowing the driver to better concentrate on driving the car. Jeff

All very well if you are a race driver and want to actually race the car, but if it's a street car and/or for track days you can't beat the interaction of a manual to get involved with your car properly [8D]

 

[Motorhead]

Don't shoot the messenger Andy....I myself belong to the "ancient tribe of the manual shifters", soon to become extinct I fear. Jeff

 

[ralphmusic]

And one 3.8L conversion (said to cost £40k) by OPC Colchester with help from a USA race shop whose owner subsequently went bankrupt... http://www.amarisupercars.com/detail?vid=39656

 

[Andy Fagan]

ORIGINAL: Motorhead Don't shoot the messenger Andy....I myself belong to the "ancient tribe of the manual shifters", soon to become extinct I fear. Jeff

[][][]

 

[spyderman]

ok, lets see

Sorry - I missed the UK cars bit - I can certainly believe that number for road-legal versions for the UK market alone. Chris.

 

[BigCat]

ORIGINAL: Andy Fagan

ORIGINAL: Motorhead Going down that "rat hole", interesting to hear a proper race driver's input on the manual vs PDK comparison, in particular his comment relating to lower driver stress levels when downshifting [fear of buzzing the engine with a manual 'box], allowing the driver to better concentrate on driving the car. Jeff

All very well if you are a race driver and want to actually race the car, but if it's a street car and/or for track days you can't beat the interaction of a manual to get involved with your car properly [8D]

Well you can, because there is no way that with a manual gearbox you can change gear as fast as you can in a car with PDK in manual mode which (in my opinion which probably differs from that of others') is a very involving driver experience, and you are way more connected with the car because you have both hands on the wheel []

 

[Andy Fagan]

ORIGINAL: BigCat

ORIGINAL: Andy Fagan

ORIGINAL: Motorhead Going down that "rat hole", interesting to hear a proper race driver's input on the manual vs PDK comparison, in particular his comment relating to lower driver stress levels when downshifting [fear of buzzing the engine with a manual 'box], allowing the driver to better concentrate on driving the car. Jeff

All very well if you are a race driver and want to actually race the car, but if it's a street car and/or for track days you can't beat the interaction of a manual to get involved with your car properly [8D]

Well you can, because there is no way that with a manual gearbox you can change gear as fast as you can in a car with PDK in manual mode which is a very involving driver experience, and you are way more connected with the car because you have both hands on the wheel []

Haha, I wonder how many PDK's there are racing? (Not sequential boxes which are a different thing) The problem for me with pdk is the down change not the upchange. I wonder whether that was the reason the older Carrera cup cars had an auto upchange but needed the use of the clutch for the down change

 

[BigCat]

What do you mean by the problem with the down change?

 

[ralphmusic]

I've found the 9x1/8x1 PDK is better than the earlier generation particularly on down changes where the rev matching works well, whether when the lower gear is selected by the driver or automatically. It does not disturb or unsettle the car even if I need to select a different gear during a corner. Sequential transmissions have a synchro-less dog-clutch, so the clutch is only necessary when selecting first or reverse gear from neutral, and most gear changes can be performed without the clutch. Some years ago I drove a 996 cup car with early sequential and that was flat change up (clutch less) and clutch for changing down (I think that was the right way round) and I assume it was something to do with the extra sync load/stability going down the box.

 

[Andy Fagan]

ORIGINAL: BigCat What do you mean by the problem with the down change?

When changing down coming into a tight bend, under hard braking they give the feeling of engine disconnection I found. As though they go into coast mode. I found this quite disconcerting and to be contrary to Ralph I actually prefer to be able to change the cars stability using the change down. So how many std PDK's are there being raced? Any in the PCGB championship or the various Porsche championships??

 

[ralphmusic]

ORIGINAL: Andy Fagan When changing down coming into a tight bend, under hard braking they give the feeling of engine disconnection I found. As though they go into coast mode. I found this quite disconcerting and to be contrary to Ralph I actually prefer to be able to change the cars stability using the change down. So how many std PDK's are there being raced? Any in the PCGB championship or the various Porsche championships??

Andy I think you would find the 981 PDK very much tighter than the 987's, I detect no "neutral" period. The video at Post #60 might be worth a view if you haven't had a chance. If I can get round to video editing I can probably pull out a 997 PDK v 981 PDK going into Goodwood chicane to show the down shifts. They seem to race PDK in the USA (not a majority for sure) and some of those that I have seen on the www appear to have extra cooling but are otherwise standard. Anyway the transmission seems up to handling extra power and race treatment but as always, which one is best is a personal choice, not a fact.

 

[spyderman]

ORIGINAL: Andy Fagan So how many std PDK's are there being raced? Any in the PCGB championship or the various Porsche championships??

None in the UK to my knowledge. The cars are too recent to enter either of the two Porsche Championships. Chris.

 

[MrDemon]

And they over heat and cause limp mode. Who cares any way ? microswitch gear changing is dull, and it's pointless to talk about race cars, unless you race, run 80mm ride heights 1200lbs springs and run slicks. PDK cuts you so far out of the enjoyment you may as well just buy a Golf R DSG, PDK works well if you are after out right speed on a Turbo car to keep the turbo spinning or 600BHp monsters. but PDK on a 300 BHP car, that's just about life over for me regarding driving enjoyment. I do hope Porsche stick two fingers up to the PDK drivers and make the GT4 manual only, that's really saying a drivers car is manual like all the past older GT3's. and they are making a car NOT about lap times. The MX5 is staying manual (they made a big thing about it being a DRIVERS car, the new Polo GTi is now again going to offer manual (DSG only last year) even the Clio Sport is looking at going back to manual. so the manafactures are also saying PDK is dull and lower end of the market in sports cars are manual buyers. I have to say leasing a Golf R for £200 + VAT you are really only buying a Porsche PDK car for the badge and looking at todays weather you would also be faster in the Golf R. No one really into cars buys PDK at this price range but I do like the commute excuse to own one ;-)

 

[rob.kellock]

An interesting subjective view. But not one I share. []

 

[Motorhead]

ORIGINAL: MrDemon And they over heat and cause limp mode. Who cares any way ? microswitch gear changing is dull, and it's pointless to talk about race cars, unless you race, run 80mm ride heights 1200lbs springs and run slicks. PDK cuts you so far out of the enjoyment you may as well just buy a Golf R DSG, PDK works well if you are after out right speed on a Turbo car to keep the turbo spinning or 600BHp monsters. but PDK on a 300 BHP car, that's just about life over for me regarding driving enjoyment. I do hope Porsche stick two fingers up to the PDK drivers and make the GT4 manual only, that's really saying a drivers car is manual like all the past older GT3's. and they are making a car NOT about lap times. The MX5 is staying manual (they made a big thing about it being a DRIVERS car, the new Polo GTi is now again going to offer manual (DSG only last year) even the Clio Sport is looking at going back to manual. so the manafactures are also saying PDK is dull and lower end of the market in sports cars are manual buyers. I have to say leasing a Golf R for £200 + VAT you are really only buying a Porsche PDK car for the badge and looking at todays weather you would also be faster in the Golf R. No one really into cars buys PDK at this price range but I do like the commute excuse to own one ;-)

A valid viewpoint MrD. Are there actually overheating problems with the PDK transmission? Unlike the traditional "slush pump" autoboxes, the PDK 'box uses wet multi-plate clutches coupled to a conventional constant mesh synchro gearbox, so I can't see why it should overheat unless customers overuse the Launch Control mode. It's availablility on the Turbo S indicates that there shouldn't be problems across the whole Porsche range. Having had only very limited experience with the PDK 'box [a couple of days with a 981 Boxster and a few laps of the PEC handling circuit in a 987 R] compared with what seems like a lifetime using manual transmissions of various competency, I don't feel particularly well qualified to judge it other than to say that I enjoyed the on-track experience much more than that on the road. But there's no doubt that it's a very slick and capable semi-auto 'box which is finding favour with more than 80% of Porsche purchasers and is the way things will go in the future. With a [decreasing?] number of customers opting for a manual transmission, I wonder how much longer Porsche will to continue to invest in developing cars with two gearbox options. Back on topic, I'm sure that the GT4 will feature the manual 'box for the entry level car to keep the cost down and I can't see Porsche turning down an extra £2k for the PDK transmission option. Jeff

 

[BigCat]

Andy, you really do need to try that in a 991 with PDK, the gear change is so quick on both up and down shifting there is absolutely no lag whatsoever in the way you describe it, there is no slip or a feeling that the engine has become disconnected and despite what Mr D wrote it is the way forward for Porsche just go onto the GT3 forum and ask Mike Allen what he thinks of his 991 GT3 with PDK. As I said there is no way a manual shift Porsche can change gear as fast as the PDK equivalent, just look at the test figures for the evidence. By the way in case of any confusion I'm not talking about using the PDK in auto mode this is driving it in Manual and using the paddles for changing up and down but as an aside if you do use it in auto then you can still override the box either by blipping the throttle which will change down 2 or 3 gears depending on how fast you do that or pull on the left paddle, it is just so versatile.

 

[MrDemon]

faster yes, but still clicking a micro switch is dull and removes the need for 1/2 your body and brain. on the road who cares about automatics or test figures just to save 1/10th of a second ? yes it's the future, but so is parking sensors, auto parking, auto braking now, and now the M1 is being widened for auto cars on 1 lane in the future. Where does one stop with automation, each thing dulling down the driving to a point a car will drive it's self. the 991 GT3 even steers the rear wheels for you to help you round a corner !!!! I have had a 991 for a day, boy it was dull, I have also watched 991 GT3 vids on track, again dull and went on the VIP GTS day, again dull. I did write to Porsche saying the VIP GTS day was pointless with the cars they made you drive. turn in, foot on throttle, brake, turn in, foot on throttle and repeat how dull is taking a car on track to do that !!! (unless you are racing bumper to bumper with others in a real race) yes different strokes for different folks and all that , but how low down the scale is driving an automatic ?

 

[BigCat]

Mr D, I really think you are in minority with those comments but as ever we all have an opinion I used to fly aeroplanes and heard the similar sort of comment about using GPS instead of good old dead reckoning. It's called technology and the ability to adapt and to change but understandably some people are not able to do this or sadly they can but won't and resort to being critical of whatever it is that they don't like in order to justify clinging on to the old school way of doing things. As for low down the scale it's the other way around I regret to inform you.[] Anyway as I said at the beginning it's our individual opinion, if you want to drive a manual go ahead as long as the option is there take advantage of it. I'm sure Porsche took note of your comments about the VIP day and then filed your letter appropriately [8|]

 

[clubsport]

Assuming there is a manual, It will be interesting to see how it works out in terms of gearing. Will the (assumed) additional power and torque be able to make use of the current 981 manual ratios. Ideally Porsche could go with bespoke gearing for the GT4? In recent years , even going back to the "last of the aircooled" cars, Porsche has used different ratios in selected RS variants. The point being, will the additional cost of engineering suitable ratios in the manual, add too much to the cost of the car..or will it just be a power hike? You can get away with it more in a premium "RS" variant. My impression is the GT4 is still being built to fit in the range of Porsche cars not to top it! Apart from a few forum warriors, I think that most owners would be oblivious to the gearing anyway. I personally know a few Spyder owners and an R driver, who certainly fit that demographic! []