Porsche 944 Prices - The Future....

[Monkeythree]

A real world example of what it costs to make a bad car good: Start with a £1750 ebay special S2 and add the following: Engine service parts (belts, rollers, cam chain pads, cam cover gaskets, filters, oil, dizzy cap, plug leads) - £541 Brakes overhaul (discs, pads, hoses, lines, handbrake shoes, anti rattle shims, seals, plate lift service) - £825 Body/chassis (sills, gaskets, trims, badges, decals) - £929 Electrical (lights, side repeaters, heater resistor) - £166 Transmission/drivetrain (CV joints, wheel bearings, wheel refurb, gear linkage, engine mounts) - £718 Suspension (dampers, wishbone, wishbone bushes, balljoints, ARB bushes, castor mounts) - £928 Interior (steering wheel, gear lever gaiter) - £90 Fuel system (lines, hoses, filters) - £362 Respray - £2230 Total £6800 or £8550 including the initial purchase price of the car. Could probably be rounded up to £9k if I included paint, sealants, powder coating, nuts and bolts etc etc. That's with me doing everything apart from the respray myself (although I did do all of the strip down and refit before and after the spray job).

 

[LarJammer]

ORIGINAL: Monkeythree A real world example of what it costs to make a bad car good: Start with a £1750 ebay special S2 and add the following: Engine service parts (belts, rollers, cam chain pads, cam cover gaskets, filters, oil, dizzy cap, plug leads) - £541 Brakes overhaul (discs, pads, hoses, lines, handbrake shoes, anti rattle shims, seals, plate lift service) - £825 Body/chassis (sills, gaskets, trims, badges, decals) - £929 Electrical (lights, side repeaters, heater resistor) - £166 Transmission/drivetrain (CV joints, wheel bearings, wheel refurb, gear linkage, engine mounts) - £718 Suspension (dampers, wishbone, wishbone bushes, balljoints, ARB bushes, castor mounts) - £928 Interior (steering wheel, gear lever gaiter) - £90 Fuel system (lines, hoses, filters) - £362 Respray - £2230 Total £6800 or £8550 including the initial purchase price of the car. Could probably be rounded up to £9k if I included paint, sealants, powder coating, nuts and bolts etc etc. That's with me doing everything apart from the respray myself (although I did do all of the strip down and refit before and after the spray job).

thats got most issues covered! how many hours do you reckon for labour on top? it shows how expensive they are to maintain properly! imagine if it also needed a headgasket and a clutch on top of all that...

 

[Monkeythree]

I reckon I've probably put somewhere around 400 hours into it. But I'm in no hurry to do things so I tend to potter along rather than rip through it. The car has done 126,000 so I'm assuming the clutch and head gasket will need doing soon. When either one goes I will take the engine out and do both jobs at the same time.

 

[Indi9xx]

That is a great real world example of how much it costs to drag a cheap 944 S2 into being a good one, and that was with you doing the work yourself, I think you could at least double those costs by using a specialist, making a total of around £14k to £18k to bring the condition of a ebay one into the realms of a good one by using specialists. I am not saying we are expensive, but specialists need to charge by the hour and the average job in your list, as you can probably agree, are seriously time consuming. Not much left in it for a car dealer to make any money from it, as a car dealer would have to pay pros to do it, then put a mark up on it, and probably would have to sell that S2 for about £20k just to cover costs and potential liability issues, so with a retail 30% magin to make it worth while, that would then be a £26k car. Even at the prices I have been talking about in this thread, there isnt a viable business for anyone creaming it in like some people might have thought, but what I hope it has highlighted is that ebay and £4k cars are not a barometer of value that some people might assume, the value of a 944 needs to be based on many details such as model, mileage, service history, condition and maybe the most overlooked is what maintenance bills are on the horizon in the next couple of years. I have been learning a lot also from this thread, which has made it so interesting, even the thought processes that have been applied to the 944 values over the last couple of weeks have been useful to us all, as over the last decade it has been easy to say that a 944 has neither depreciated or appreciated, even though the numbers have been shrinking and inflation has (even with the recession) moved on... It's sometimes part of the British psychology to sell something for what it cost and to be a bit humble when approaching selling anything, rather than selling an item for what we think someone will pay for it and not being brave enough to sit it out waiting for the right buyer for a niche item. Designer brands will sell a handbag for an exclusive price, for an exclusive item knowing someone out there wants an exclusive item and will pay.. Why do 944 owners feel their cars are not worth more because a Boxster is only worth £5k? When instead you should be thinking why would my Porsche with pop up headlights and retro looks be worth as little as a ex rental ford focus? There seems to be not much spread in value in the past between a 944 with nothing done for years and one where it looks great and has every job ever talked about in this forum performed already.. mad really.. Hopefully the tide has turned now. One last thing, for those of you who have owned these cars for more than 10 years, how often do you now hear people refer to them as the "Poor mans Porsche" or "isnt that the one with the VW engine" compared to back 10, 15 or 20 years ago? Those comments of jealousy that used to be fired at the cars have almost vanished over the years, which is all about public perception and lets face it, its the public who are buyers.

 

[LarJammer]

ORIGINAL: Monkeythree I reckon I've probably put somewhere around 400 hours into it. But I'm in no hurry to do things so I tend to potter along rather than rip through it. The car has done 126,000 so I'm assuming the clutch and head gasket will need doing soon. When either one goes I will take the engine out and do both jobs at the same time.

so lets say for the sake of argument (no implication on your work speed) that its 200 hrs at a specialist (or you charge yourself labour) at 70/hr that adds another 14k to your 9k, making it a 23k build. i think that shows even with the alleged high values they are still not viable restoration projects, the same is probably true of most 911 projects too...

 

[Shark]

For everyone's information - Your local OPC has a classic car rate of £60+vat (£72 per hour).. I know my local grease monkeys charge £50+vat (£60 per hour).. a no brainer..

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx ....cars for sale need lots of work....

I think you need to look at most 944 purchases as rolling restorations...and that's where the £1-2k maintenance budget goes every year. Does anyone expect a private sale 20-20 year old car to be perfect? Still think that blue one looks a good prospect though

 

[Shark]

Unless the owner was a manic enthusiast, all private sale 944's leave a lot to be desired. Even when the guy is an enthusiast, the car can still be a dog, worse sometimes! Joe public does not have a clue how to maintain his car, doesn't even know how to clean it, keep it or drive it properly. He is blind to any glaring faults too (usually a catalogue of problems)...and when you go to view it as a private sale there will be zero preparation for the viewing (car will be filthy for eg). When you see all that, walk away....

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

ORIGINAL: Shark Unless the owner was a manic enthusiast, all private sale 944's leave a lot to be desired. Even when the guy is an enthusiast, the car can still be a dog, worse sometimes! Joe public does not have a clue how to maintain his car, doesn't even know how to clean it, keep it or drive it properly. He is blind to any glaring faults too (usually a catalogue of problems)...and when you go to view it as a private sale there will be zero preparation for the viewing (car will be filthy for eg). When you see all that, walk away....

Or ....you can lay on a nice clean carpet with adequate heat and lighting and inspect the sills and arches in dehumidified comfort. Not all private sellers are the same []

So I think from these 8 or 9 pages we all still believe the same things as before. Some believe and want 944's to stay at £3k, are willing to get their hands dirty maintaining and welding them....then still have a £3k car Some want to buy a £3k car and believe without any work it is equal to the £15k car they have seen on Pistonheads Some buy a pristine low mileage example at a high price, continue to improve them, service them and not use them [] but expect in return a realistic selling price, not necessarily a profit.

 

[tref]

Ah, now I prefer to buy 'em like that, because you can tell about how the previous owner has really looked after it! Different from a dealer obvious, but there is expecting some kind of warranty. I have a good idea of what a "full restoration" will likely cost, as I have been through it on the 924 turbo cab. A while ago I used to say to people that I could have bought a decent Boxster for what it has cost... It used to cause a sharp intake of breath. Now it doesn't actually tell anyone anything. It was when you couldn't get a Boxster for less than five figures. Oh, and apart from bodywork, there was no labour, and many parts were covered by buying a complete running donor car for £300 (oh to buy a 924turbo of that quality now for £300!). More recently I have started recording the time I spend as well as money spent, but I didn't earlier on. For me the biggest fear is routine spares making them impractical to use as a daily car. 924 turbos already have that worry with the crankshaft sensor (although I believe there is a work-around for that now)... I wonder when we will have one of our specialist evolving into the 944 equivalent of what Roger Bray is to the 356... (Jon?[]) For those that aren't familiar Roger "takes as long as it takes"... and I don't think the cost is ever a question. Parts are already getting more expensive, particularly since I know of at least one breaker who threw out his old 944 panels as they just didn't sell a while ago (not cost effective to have them taking up space - sound business sense) For anyone that does keep them now, they have to command a higher price to justify the floor space they are taking up. As for them being an investment? Hmmm... Let us take the original purchase price, cost of regular servicing, insurance, tax, for at least twenty-two years, and that is before you put any petrol in them... Nope none of them look as if they have performed well as an investment to me![]

 

[white944]

ORIGINAL: Shark Even when the guy is an enthusiast, the car can still be a dog, worse sometimes! Joe public does not have a clue how to maintain his car, doesn't even know how to clean it, keep it or drive it properly. He is blind to any glaring faults too (usually a catalogue of problems)...and when you go to view it as a private sale there will be zero preparation for the viewing (car will be filthy for eg). When you see all that, walk away....

Sounds like you have a very low opinion of the public at large (or potential customers as they're known as in the trade) Mr. Shark. This is a sweeping generalisation you're making here, a bit like the public's general opinion that all used car dealers are crooked hose traders. In the real world we're not all clueless w**kers, and, you never know, one day we might find an honest dealer with a bit more respect for his fellow man[]

 

[Neil Haughey]

I think he is entirely reasonable actually. Many will not like hearing this but even 10 years ago I would walk through the car park at one of the big events and see a lot of average condition cars. When one factors in the things you can't see then IMHO even 10 years ago a lot of these cars would have been well below what I would judge good condition. A couple of specialists back then reckoned my S2 was in the top 10% of cars they would see but it was always for me just a little short of where I wanted it, I just didn't have enough money to make it perfect, but I did always spend whatever was required on the mechanicals. If I had that money I probably would have been in a different Porsche and this fundamentally is what led to so many poor cars as so many tried to run them on Ford money. I used to spend about 2 grand a year maintaining the car back then as well but I was doing more than 10k miles a year for a long time and used to go through tires and brakes every year more or less to 18 months or so.

 

[Shark]

Of course, there are exceptions (like Paul's car above).. But when you've had a couple thousand used cars through your hands you notice a pattern..I'm just being realistic, my comments are based on experience.

 

[MartinRS2K]

We are all different with different expectations of how we want our car to be and what our budget is. I am no expert, but having bought plenty of cars in nearly 30 years I have driven all over the country with money in my pocket ready to buy cars advertised as "the best you will find", "immaculate condition", "mechanically perfect" etc. etc. and ended up with a long drive home (or return train ticket) after viewing cars that were NOT as described. How many people buy a car whether with cash or as a loan using up all available funds and don't take into account the money needed to keep it maintained correctly?? And when it needs work done the pot is empty!! This is the start in some cases of a downhill spiral with the car being the one losing out.

 

[white944]

Oh, well. Sounds like the likes of me has no business owning a Porsche.

 

[tref]

You and me both... But there are ways of doing it right, and doing it on a budget. I have a garage full of parts I have bought cheap for the day when I will need them... Actually, two garages and a loft. And part of the sitting room. And the office... It's the old argument. You can have good quality, you can have it fast, or you can have it cheap. You can have any two, but not all three. I spend a LOT of time on my car... And don't have a TV! And I have to agree with Neil and Shark... People who look after their cars properly are few and far between, but I reckon there are a higher proportion of Porsche owners, and much higher proportion in the club. Which probably explains the perceived added value for cars "previously owned by Porsche Club member"

 

[white944]

Heh Heh. That's OK then, mine's sporting a PCGB sticker left on it by the previous owner. Knew it was a diamond in the rough[]

 

[MRGT]

I like my 944, that's why its driven in all weathers, not kept in a heated garage over the winter. I paid 6k for my turbo - do I drive it in all weathers - yes. Is it kept outside ? -yes. Do I maintain it ? - yes. Would I sell it - no. I dont care if I get 2K or 25K when (if) I come to sell it. I didn't buy it for that reason []

 

[Waylander]

Is that diamond white Michael? Oh sorry that's a ford colour []

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: tref And I have to agree with Neil and Shark... People who look after their cars properly are few and far between, but I reckon there are a higher proportion of Porsche owners, and much higher proportion in the club. Which probably explains the perceived added value for cars "previously owned by Porsche Club member"

I think that is a fair point Tref, its shocking how rough many boxsters and 996s are these days. Seen quite a few in supermarkets etc. which look like any other heavily used 15+ year old car, basically a whisker away from the scrappy. I can remember well when the 944 went through that period and is arguably only just starting to come out the other side.