Sat Nav/TMC

[jonathanw]

I think that there are fewer than 100 cars on the 997 register which suggests that the vast majority of 997 owners probably do not know of or know how to get on the forum and probably are not aware of the shortcomings of the Sat/Nav issues.

How about the club contacting these potential members with a questionaire. Properly worded it could increase the club membership and I suspect would uncover many Porsche owners who are not aware of what they should expect,

I suspect that the vast majority of 997 have sat nav as this is always sited as a good resale factor.

 

[robert997]

Delbox, I'm thinking the same. It's quite clear it's not a serious concern for the many, hence the position we've verbally taken is along the lines of 'just help these loyal owners/club members' - we don't suddenly want 2000 odd 997 and 987 owners approaching their dealers for an upgrade if this was a formal offer. It's obviously only a concern for a few of us, and a few hundred quid on 20 cars is more palatable than a big recall...

And hence jonathan I do understand your point, but in my own opinion I'd rather avoid that just now so as not to escalate the issue. However, were PGB to declare a flat no, then raising awareness and creating a storm among owners, going to the press etc might certainly be a consideration !! We mentioned that verbally too !

 

[dereksharpuk]

There are actually 117 members on the Register at present and some 20 - 30 others who declined to return their Registration forms. So I guess, there must be circa 100 with Sat Nav pre MY06. As for a questionaire, I doubt if the Club would arrange it! It would have to come from me as RS. However, lets explore that avenue when Rob & I meet the Board.

 

[Michael Downing]

Presumably such a questionnaire would go to 996/986/987 owners who have or could have PCM2?

I do, and notwithstanding my BMW experience of TMC would rather have it than not.

 

[dereksharpuk]

In an ideal world, yes it would be a great idea to send the questionnaire to everyone with PCM/Sat Nav. However, though this Forum is a great media, most Club members don't use it. So this method is no good. Moreover, I could not communicate with anyone other than 997 Register members. For a start, I don't have their contact details. The Boxster RS would possible help out, but I am less sure about 996 & Cayenne. Finally, I doubt that Club office would take part. Sorry to be so negative, but I don't see any correspondence on the subject from Club Directors, Cayenne or 996 Register Secretaries.Sadly I tend to agree with Rob's view that because in the grand scheme of things so few of us are actually bothered, Porsche Cars hope the problem will disappear. More importantly, as members sell their cars (as I have done) they will become disinterested (though of course I am not!).

 

[Guest]

Good grief people, what a bunch of sanctimonious gits you all are. Do you really expect PCGB to equip your cars with TMC and sod the remainder of the British Porsche driving fraternity? I think not!
You have to make a legal stance, as I did, and get the problem resolved not just for your membership (your main consideration, of course) but for the remaining Porsche owners who will also benefit from the repercussions of any legal ruling. Restoring customer satisfaction is not part of the equation here, the publicity brochures clearly state that TMC is a feature of Sat Nav. The arguments put forward by Princer 2 are in my view, irrelevant (no offence intended).

 

[Michael Downing]

Derek,

This is not a 997 issue; it is a PCM2 issue. Your involvement started because 997 owners spotted the problem and raised it; your efforts are greatly appreciated and we hope that they bear fruit. If/when they do, credit will be due to you.

But to cure an issue that lies with an item of equipment common to many models but only secure the rectification for a single model to which the same box was fitted seems illogical. Especially when you are also asking for more owners to stand up and register their complaint!

 

[Mark_Bennett]

I will certainly help any Boxster owners who wish to persue this.
I have brought the matter up in (I think) the last two Boxster columns in Porsche Post. There is also now a "sticky" at the top of the Boxster Forum (admittedly, pointing to this thread - but it makes sense to keep the topic in one place).
Derek had to prompt me for the sticky, - stupidly I thought that there would have been enough Boxster owners affected to keep the thread "alive", - but I am here and willing to help!

 

[Delbox]

John,

I don't understand your comment regarding some of us being 'sanctimonious'! You saw a problem and dealt with it yourself for your benefit alone; Derek 'took the bull by the horns' and, with Rob's support - and representing those who could be bothered to express their concern, is trying to resolve the TMC issue for the many.

If it was as simple as you say then those of us who have approached our OPCs would have reached the same beneficial result as you; however, most OPCs have not taken such a benevolent stance as yours! I'm pleased that your problem has been resolved - but for the rest of us the issue remains.

Calling us 'sanctimonious' and a 'load of old wives' doesn't help. If you have a case based upon 'legal rights' as you suggest, then perhaps you would be willing to allow the Club members who are lawyers, and involved in this thread, to examine it for precedent. However, I'm sure that if the legal position was clear then 'our' lawyers would be exploiting it; moreover, PGB would be addressing the issue with more concern if a legal battle was anticipated.

If your OPC has resolved the TMC issue for you then perhaps you would be willing to gain a commitment from its Principal to supply the upgrade necessary to all of those affected by the issue. I'm sure that this will prove impossible - and that your upgrade was given as a goodwill gesture, notwithstanding your 'legal rights'.

No offence intended by my remarks - just the frustration of a 987 owner who still does not have TMC enabled!

Derek

 

[dereksharpuk]

Yup, I agree with Delbox as usual. We do need to keep the pressure on and work as a team. However, do please read my next missive, it is bad news and thus we need think about the next move.

 

[Guest]

As a Consultant who works within the NHS I regularly witness an enormous amount of bureaucracy that is imposed by administrators who very often have dubious first hand knowledge of the real life problems patients and staff alike are experiencing. The similarities, in my view, are very similar to those being experienced here. I wholeheartedly sympathise with your frustrations.

For your information my legal advice was conveyed by my brother (a lawyer) who corresponded with my OPC on my behalf. We understand that authority was granted by PGB for me to receive the appropriate upgrade, though we do not have anything in writing to support this. It certainly was not a goodwill gesture.

 

[dereksharpuk]

You may recall that I receive a phone call yesterday from a member who has been formally told by PorscheCars that he will not be getting an updated navigation disc. The letter is dated 21 Sep 05. As promised here are the salient features of the letter to him:

1. TMC works on MY 06.
2. TMC does not work on MY 05 in UK.
3. A disc will be available shortly to cure the problem.
4. TMC works in Europe with MY05 because it is a free public service.
5. The software providers have chosen to register privately in the UK and sell retail licences on a 'per application basis' The update disc includes the licence.
6.This is outside the control of Porsche Cars thus they cannot provide the disc free of charge.

Personally I don't accept that 'this is outside the control of PorscheCars'. Andy Goss, MD Porsche Cars, specifically told Rob and I, in front of David Newton (our Chairman), that this was NOT a money issue. Hence, if the disc is available, why do PGB not supply it (& hence the licence) free of charge to those of us who were led to belive that TMC worked in the UK as well as in Europe. Nowhere in the brochure does it state that it would not work in the UK. Moreover, the comment made recently is still valid in that when specifying our cars the salesman should go through the brochure and point out what is not available in the UK, rather than rely on the small print 'cop out' stating this is a world wide document. Personally, given the minimal cost of a DVD to the provider, I cannot understand why Porsche Cars do not offer it foc as a Gesture of Goodwill.Expecting us to pay hundreds of pounds and thus make more profit from us is puzzling. Or is it?

 

[dereksharpuk]

John,

Thanks you for that. Would you be willing to ask your brother what was the jist of his legal argument. If it was valid, and it must have been, we could all use it!

 

[Mark_Bennett]

Licence Holders are ITIS- here is the OFCOM announcement - < Link >

[FONT=arial"][FONT=arial"]ITIS HOLDINGS PLC - 5th Floor, Station House, Stamford New Road, Altrincham, Cheshire, WA14 1EP (contact: Danny Woolard or Stuart Marks, tel. 0161 929 5788);

< ITIS Website >

 

[Delbox]

Do we know what the retail cost of the upgrade is? Not that I'm suggesting that we should meet it - but some may choose to pay and gain the benefits rather than wait for an unknown period while 'negotiations' continue, with an unknown outcome! Also, it would be interesting to know what is likely to be the cost to PGB of each upgrade.

 

[Mark_Bennett]

ORIGINAL: Delbox

Do we know what the retail cost of the upgrade is?

That's what I was trying to find out when I found the above.
I'm sure owners wouldn't mind paying the Licence fee (OK I'm not sure, but you know what I mean!) as opposed to the full "upgrade" price of new maps and everything.?

 

[Mark_Bennett]

A nice explaination of TMC (and theroretical one-of cost of £50) --> HERE <--

 

[Mark_Bennett]

Quotes on TMC from the Chief Technology Office of ITIS themselves (from a conference proceedings --> HERE <<-- )
I've highlighted a couple of interesting points []




Jonathan Burr, Chief Technology Officer, iTIS Holdings PLC

• iTIS Holdings sells traffic information in the United Kingdom. "The technology side is relatively easy compared to the challenge of actually building a sustainable business out of traffic information."
• One of the key things iTIS has learned is that they have to segment their market. The company segments its U.K. business into four business sectors:
  • The automotive industry - iTIS is working with the major OEMs in the U.K. for RDS-TMC, which is a dynamic navigation system.
  • Government - iTIS is selling archived data to the U.K. Dept. of Transport so that the agency can better understand traffic patterns.
  • Mobile telephone companies - iTIS offers "premium telephone services" that are similar to 511 services in the U.S. Customers pay from $1. To $1.50 per minute for traffic information, and the company receives 10 to 12 million calls per year.
  • The logistics industry -- iTIS is involved in getting data to firms so that they can schedule their distributions better.
• RDS-TMC is a way of providing traffic information from the raw data sources, primarily probes. The company has around 50,000 probes collecting data on a nationwide basis. They combine that information with incident data provided by the Automobile Association, and broadcast traveler information on a national FM radio system.
• The European RDS-TMC standard provides a way to get data into a car and onto the satellite navigation system. Drivers not only receive door-to-door navigation services, but can use current-traffic-condition maps to find ways around heavy congestion or incidents.
• "Journey time data" is the key data that's been driving the firm's TMC offerings. "Of course there's data about road closures and accidents, but journey time data really makes this fly."
• The RDS-TMC protocol was developed by public-sector agencies in Europe as a way of distributing traffic information to the general public. "It was seen in the context of a public good, and the development of the standard was sponsored by the taxpayer." The U.K. government sponsored a very small-scale trial in 1997. "We then started developing our probe vehicle technology, and discovered that there was an opportunity here to make TMC happen in the U.K. market."
• Through competitive bidding at a public auction, iTIS won license rights from the U.K. Government to broadcast traveler information data for eight years. "The government actually takes a fee for that bandwidth. We actually had to put a price on what we thought the value was of that radio bandwidth." The license terms call for a fixed fee plus percentage of revenue. "As we do more and more TMC business, the government is actually collecting more and more money, which is intriguing."
• Burr said that the cost for a lifetime subscription service for RDS-TMC is approximately $100. "It's like buying a piece of software." The product is now migrating from expensive luxury vehicles like the BMW 7 series, for example, to "becoming a central business tool on the Ford Mondeo."
• "This proves that people will pay for high-quality traffic data. The traffic business is not different from any other business -- people will not pay you for poor quality data. If you can get the quality right people will pay for it -- it's as simple as that."
• While RDS-TMC is also offered on continental Europe, on the continent the service is primarily provided by government agencies. "The government actually spends money on TMC in the interests of public policy." The public-sector service that's available in Europe is generally perceived be much poorer quality than the U.K.'s commercial offering. "No one's actually paying the bills for this TMC service [on continental Europe]. There isn't any method of actually paying to improve the infrastructure for the data that's being provided."
• Burr said that some commercial companies in Europe are providing TMC services, but business is difficult for them because they are competing against the governments' free services.
• Burr predicted that the increasing penetration of dynamic navigation will eventually raise what he called "transport management issues." "When route guidance systems take people off the freeway when there's less capacity, it's actually making life easier for people who don't have the system to stay on the freeway."
• "We'd like to think that ultimately the system will have such an impact on relieving congestion that the U.K. government will say to us, 'we'd better manage this for you,' change the business model, and actually subsidize the service and give us more money to run the system in the public interest."
• "In summary, TMC started off as a public good, we turned it into a commercial service, and ultimately one day it will go back to being a public good again."

 

[Guest]

This continues to be really annoying. Porsche signed up for a license to use TMC from ITIS on 29th November last year. At around the same time, I got my car, which had navigation added, at a cost of £1260, and a phone that cost £525.

I like the navigation, but have been waiting for the TMC since last November. My OPC assured me that there would be an update free of charge (oh how I wish I had this in writing!)

This summer I bought a PDA that includes a phone and SatNav. It cost around £300. I can then get the same traffic info via TomTom plus that is supplied under license from ITIS for £35 per year. As a bonus, the PDA also makes better quality phone calls than the built in car phone. Oh, and TomTom only licensed TMC from ITIS in June this year, but already have a live system.

So I have a £1785 car phone and sat nav, but instead have my pda sat on the dash, having cost £1400 less but having the functionality that I have already paid for once in the price of the car. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

[Michael Downing]

A quick point that may be of interest to anyone trying the "legal argument" route is that, while the 911 brochure does indeed have a disclaimer at the back, certain items are picked out with a note that they are not available in all markets. An example is in the 996 brochure edition 07/02 at page 126 with reference to the telephone preparation (not for PCM) which has a **, which is referenced as "Not available for all markets".

Hence, we can reasonably assume that in the absence of such a **, the item is available in all markets. As, for example, on page 95 of the same brochure, a GPS navigation system "which can also receive traffic news bulletins".